Why is Maplewood Court 90% Black defendants? Maplewood = Ferguson?

sarahzm,

"So while your status as a moron may be disputable by some, I can think of some other not too flattering monikers that might be appropriate as well."

Really? Why such the anger?? Do you always get this easily rilled during a political discussion?

I've read a lot of fools on MOL, but never felt the desire to insult and call them names!

This whole line of conversation was really settled by the post above that demonstrated that Maplewood is not making money off our poor residents in Municipal court. It was clearly stated that only 1.5% of the municipal budget is raised that way, as opposed to 20%+ in the comparison town in Missouri.

So, whether you think it was right to raise the question or not, the question has been raised and answered.

The answer is "No, there is not this problem here."

Can we move on?

lindajpetrosgouin said:

why the name calling? not very condusive to dialougue

There are ten Commandments of Rational Debate, a few that we should maybe think on here…

Though shall not attack the person’s character, but the argument itself.
Though shall not misrepresent or exaggerate a person’s argument in order to make them easier to attack.
Though shall not reduce the argument down to only two possibilities when there is a clear middle ground.
Though shall not argue that because of our ignorance, the claim must be true or false.
Though shall not assume that “this” follows “that”, when “it” has no logical connection.

I

but what if the person making the argument is doing so in a way that is devoid or character or ethics.

And the horse dies....

knowlton said:

sarahzm,

"So while your status as a moron may be disputable by some, I can think of some other not too flattering monikers that might be appropriate as well."

Really? Why such the anger?? Do you always get this easily rilled during a political discussion?

I've read a lot of fools on MOL, but never felt the desire to insult and call them names!

Because without really knowing the facts or having any firsthand information you grossly misrepresented the situation in a way that was derogatory, inflammatory and hurtful.

knowlton said:

On to term Black:

My friend said "Black is how Black people identified themselves during the Black Power Movement. The PC version (African American) was created to minimize the movement."

Perhaps this is splitting hairs but I specifically said the word blacks AS A NOUN is not generally acceptable in the year 2015.
This is different from "black people" or "black power", where black is an adjective. I offered no opinion on that.
OP said "are the Maplewood police targeting blacks for minor offenses" , ie the OP used blacks as a noun.

The mere contemplation of comparing Ferguson to Maplewood is asinine. Come to find out that the statistics (90% black to 10% white) behind the contemplation were based on a friend's account of their experience in municipal court is even more asinine. If you want to have a real debate, do your homework first and bring real statistics to the table.

unclear if that question is directed at the person who started this thread or not... but, in case it is, I would ask you, how would you know if the person is devoid of character or ethics? that statement suggest you know this person very well... perhaps this is something personal and not about the topic at all?

or do you not know the person at all and your low opinion of them is based on a short MOL thread, therefor purely superficial assumptions...

to which I would say, a debate based on assumptions is a bit of a fools game

debate on by all means, but leave the insults and rude names out of it

max_weisenfeld said:

And the horse dies....

im with max. im out - even though i feel the topic deserves attention, but certainly not this level of attention.

http://forum.maplewoodonline.com/discussion/107554/how-to-confirm-that-coda-workers-get-insurance-money#Item_51

I can share my experience in municipal court in Berkeley Heights for a speeding ticket I received back in 2010. There were a lot of things I remember about that day but the thing that stands out most in my eyes were how many minorities there were in traffic court that day. Many of the stories were the same. People pulled over for minor traffic violations and found to have suspended licenses or other warrants for things like not paying child support etc.

The judge was sympathetic to some but there were many repeat offenders mostly for unpaid parking tickets.

I spoke to my lawyer about the make up of the defendants in the court that day and he explained that in his experience (a lawyer in Elizabeth mostly) that it is much more socio-economic than race related and that out here most of the lower on the socio-economic scale are minorities (Black, Hispanic etc.). Its a downward spiral. A tail light goes out, the driver on his/her way to a minimum wage job has to choose between paying the electric bill or fixing a tail light. They choose the former playing the traffic violation lottery. Maybe they have some unpaid parking tickets or other unpaid tickets. They begin to pile up, the fines increasing and before you know it the unpaid tickets lead to a licence suspension and another fine. They cannot afford attorneys to help them plea bargain so they wind up with a warrant for their arrest.

One particularly heart breaking story about a guy who was arrested for not paying child support. Lost his job while in jail. Got out of jail, finds a job in construction. Drives to work gets pulled over for some minor infraction. Turns out he was driving without a license (suspended), hauled back into court and arrested again for failing to pay child support. A vicious circle.

So like many things in our area the odds are stacked against lower income people. In our town there are a lot of Black people who are lower on the socio economic scale. Head to Elizabeth and many will be Hispanic. I believe it really has more to do with economics than race.

Perhaps you missed my question:

LOST said:

Knowlton,

Have you been to the Maplewood Municipal Court? If so, what was your experience?
If not, why not visit and come back here and tell us how it went?

knowlton said:

A moron? I'm a lot of things, but not a moron.

A moron titles a post with an obviously inflammatory reference and then proceeds to support it with completely unresearched anecdotal evidence from an unnamed third party and expects to be treated with respect. That would define a moron.

A person seriously interested in dialogue would start by contacting the court to understand if they are willing/able/required to report the demographics of defendants and proceed from there or might ask "does anyone know how to determine the racial makeup of defendants in Maplewood Municipal Court". So yeah, I'd agree with the moron label.

You are exactly right, Sportsnut. The deck is stacked against the poor in so many ways. Credit is unavailable or costs a whole lot more. Even ATM withdrawals might be relatively more expensive given that a withdrawal fee is flat whether you withdraw $20 or $200. And then there is the whole minor traffic violation thing you described above.

Its not necessary to keep calling Knowlton a moron.

Woot said:

Its not necessary to keep calling Knowlton a moron.

Agree. It's not consistent with the rules here.

Sometimes, smart people say stupid things. I say more than my share of stupid things. I know knowlton, and she is a smart and very caring person. Her remarks were shallow and incendiary, and I trust she has the ability to see that now. She is not a troll.

sportsnut makes some great points about what it's like to be poor or a minority, which can explain why you might see a disproportionate number of minorities in courthouses.

I was in Maplewood Municipal court about two years ago. For what it's worth, most people were white. . It may have been the day, the court, etc., but I am pretty sure I would have noticed.

Regarding the problems with being poor, yes it's always hard to be poor. I was brought up in Brooklyn, living over my mother's retail store and saw every type of person, literally millionaires and people on welfare - white, black, American Indians, and just about every ethnic group come into her store. And the most difficult lives, by far, were those of poor people, who had no margin for error in their lives. I think it's not only still true, but somehow more true.

I notice that the title of this thread has not changed despite the number of posters who state that they have actually been to the Court and dispute the that their experience contradicts the premise.

LOST said:

I notice that the title of this thread has not changed despite the number of posters who state that they have actually been to the Court and dispute the that their experience contradicts the premise.

About says it all don't it?