We All Need to Defend Speech We Hate: Liberals Silencing Conservative Speakers Is a Pyhrric Victory for the Left
No DB it is not true that"Colleges always have to make decisions about what speakers may or not be appropriate". For who is commencement speaker, yes. But there are varying groups on campus who should be free to invite who they want and no other group should feel they have the right to interfere with that invitation.
drummerboy said:
This is such a ridiculous topic. As has been pointed out, people like Coulter and Murray have plenty of outlets for their speech. A cancelled campus appearance here or there makes no difference.
Colleges always have to make decisions about what speakers may or not be appropriate. The issue is simply where lines are drawn. There is a world where Coulter and Murray cross that line and are simply not appropriate speakers, and certainly shouldn't be given money by a college to speak. Coulter has no "ideas" - she's a rabble-rouser, pure and simple. Murray has been riding high based on having written a most despicable book years ago. He should have been shunted aside from any self-respecting academic institution or think-tank many years ago. Instead, he has prospered.
Yes, there should be no violent protests. But if a protest happens to prevent trash like Coulter or Murray from spreading crap while getting paid for it, I'm all for it.
No one has a right to a campus speaking engagement. No one has a right to get paid for speaking. If someone's livelihood, like Coulter's, depends on demonization and divisiveness, let her make her money some other way.
Some thoughts on free speech and liberty are set forth below (these luminaries do a much better job describing the necessity of free speech than I ever could):
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell
“Censorship is to art as lynching is to justice.”
“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
― George Washington
“My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line, and kiss my ***.”
― Christopher Hitchens
“Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech.”
― Benjamin Franklin, Silence Dogood, The Busy-Body, and Early Writings
“If there's one American belief I hold above all others, it's that those who would set themselves up in judgment on matters of what is "right" and what is "best" should be given no rest; that they should have to defend their behavior most stringently. ... As a nation, we've been through too many fights to preserve our rights of free thought to let them go just because some prude with a highlighter doesn't approve of them."
[Bangor Daily News, Guest Column of March 20, 1992]”
― Stephen King
RealityForAll said:
Perhaps we can invite Coulter to SOPAC to demonstrate our support for free speech.
bettyd said:
Why do liberals/progressive let people like this bother them so much?
Just let the woman deliver her drivel and don't get worked up about it. Don't show up and don't let her bother you. Let her deliver her schtick to her followers and anyone else who wants to listen to it, or to those who read her books (which is just the same book over and over and over again).
Progressives give the woman, who is not particularly bright or incisive, too much attention. Her reason for being is to get under progressives' skin and they let it happen. This whole episode played right into her hands. They have made her bigger and more influential than she should be by the over the top reaction to her.
I say welcome her to speak at any and all college campuses and ignore her.
If she were invited to speak at SOPAC I wouldn't care and I wouldn't go. Let her speak to a half filled auditorium of slavish followers or anyone else who wants to listen, and she can then lament the absence of the circus she so desperately wants and the lack of attention which she desperately needs.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, the ACLU apparently does not see it your way.
wedjet said:
It is not the left or liberals who are shutting down free speech at Berkeley. It is the minority neo-nazi alt right cohorts and the antifa. They both come to demonstrations to pick fights.
I've written about this before, but the suppression of criticisms of the military and our country's militarism are far more dangerous than an Ann Coulter speech being postponed. But no one even wants to discuss our country's worship of the military, the self-imposed conformity of how we talk about the military, and how that enables our war mongering leaders.
Try pointing out that our "troops" aren't "protecting our freedom" around the world. In some places, that might get you a beatdown.
@DB, the Left's antics at Berkeley (and other locations) have been used to create an atmosphere where the Berkeley administration can claim serious safety concerns exist. And, thereby cancel the speaker on this basis. (Please note, Berkeley has the power to set the time, place whether outsiders will be permitted to attend, and ban those with masks and hoodies from the vicinity - but none these steps have been taken). Now you, DB< are piling on with the argument that a few cancelled speakers "makes no difference." IMHO, what the Left is trying to do is create a muzzle on those people whose views they oppose (and also a basis for forcing university students to self censor).
The corner stone of your argument is: "Colleges always have to make decisions about what speakers may or not be appropriate." I would agree with your comment so long as such decisions are content neutral. However, these decisions are not being made on a content neutral basis. As a result, we have a fundamental right, free speech, being curtailed by some shadowy administrator without well articulated argument for such curtailment. It will be a cold day in hell before I agree to turn over our fundamental constitutional right of free speech to some unknown bureaucrat(s) at a Leftist university so that they can suppress political speech with which they disagree.
drummerboy said:
This is such a ridiculous topic. As has been pointed out, people like Coulter and Murray have plenty of outlets for their speech. A cancelled campus appearance here or there makes no difference.
Colleges always have to make decisions about what speakers may or not be appropriate. The issue is simply where lines are drawn. There is a world where Coulter and Murray cross that line and are simply not appropriate speakers, and certainly shouldn't be given money by a college to speak. Coulter has no "ideas" - she's a rabble-rouser, pure and simple. Murray has been riding high based on having written a most despicable book years ago. He should have been shunted aside from any self-respecting academic institution or think-tank many years ago. Instead, he has prospered.
Yes, there should be no violent protests. But if a protest happens to prevent trash like Coulter or Murray from spreading crap while getting paid for it, I'm all for it.
No one has a right to a campus speaking engagement. No one has a right to get paid for speaking. If someone's livelihood, like Coulter's, depends on demonization and divisiveness, let her make her money some other way.
@bettyd, I agree with you 100%.
bettyd said:
RealityForAll said:
Perhaps we can invite Coulter to SOPAC to demonstrate our support for free speech.
bettyd said:
Why do liberals/progressive let people like this bother them so much?
Just let the woman deliver her drivel and don't get worked up about it. Don't show up and don't let her bother you. Let her deliver her schtick to her followers and anyone else who wants to listen to it, or to those who read her books (which is just the same book over and over and over again).
Progressives give the woman, who is not particularly bright or incisive, too much attention. Her reason for being is to get under progressives' skin and they let it happen. This whole episode played right into her hands. They have made her bigger and more influential than she should be by the over the top reaction to her.
I say welcome her to speak at any and all college campuses and ignore her.
If she were invited to speak at SOPAC I wouldn't care and I wouldn't go. Let her speak to a half filled auditorium of slavish followers or anyone else who wants to listen, and she can then lament the absence of the circus she so desperately wants and the lack of attention which she desperately needs.
@ml1, nice shift to a different subject. However, I do agree that we do not need to expand the military budget at this time.
ml1 said:
I've written about this before, but the suppression of criticisms of the military and our country's militarism are far more dangerous than an Ann Coulter speech being postponed. But no one even wants to discuss our country's worship of the military, the self-imposed conformity of how we talk about the military, and how that enables our war mongering leaders.
Try pointing out that our "troops" aren't "protecting our freedom" around the world. In some places, that might get you a beatdown.
RealityForAll said:
@ml1, nice shift to a different subject. However, I do agree that we do not need to expand the military budget at this time.
If the topic is free speech, it's a totally valid point.
I am still waiting for an example of a planned speech by someone with a point of view on the left that was cancelled or disrupted by right or alt right threats or protests.
yes, it's completely the same topic. The stuff I wrote in my last post, I would seriously not utter in public in many places in this country. If I'm legitimately fearful that someone might punch me for saying the military is not currently "protecting my freedom," how is that different from some so-called leftists threatening violence so Ann Coulter can't speak?
dave23 said:
RealityForAll said:
@ml1, nice shift to a different subject. However, I do agree that we do not need to expand the military budget at this time.
If the topic is free speech, it's a totally valid point.
But I do love RealityForAll's proposal to ban hoodies to protect free speech.
As I said ml1: I am still waiting for an example of a planned speech by someone with a point of view on the left that was cancelled or disrupted by right or alt right threats or protests.
Anecdotal fears are not the same thing as actual planned events being disrupted or cancelled due to threats.
Gilgul said:
As I said ml1: I am still waiting for an example of a planned speech by someone with a point of view on the left that was cancelled or disrupted by right or alt right threats or protests.
Anecdotal fears are not the same thing as actual planned events being disrupted or cancelled due to threats.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11...
Speakers left-wing students sought to block on their campuses included Republican presidential candidates Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie and Rick Santorum, and Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.
College administrators granted a few more requests from conservatives than liberals — 56 versus 49. FIRE counted official dis-invitations from the university, speakers withdrawing from events, and heckling that forced the speaker off stage during a presentation.
@dave23, how about the antifada and blackblock masks?
It seems hoodies provide a similar function as the masks (namely, deter identification by authorities).
dave23 said:
But I do love RealityForAll's proposal to ban hoodies to protect free speech.
ml1 look at the data itself.
https://www.thefire.org/resour...
Pretty much every one is "from the left" and those few listed "from the right" are all schools with a religious connection.
Half of Silicon Valley is going to catch a cold because of you. (Maybe it is Mark Zuckerberg hurling rocks in the West Bank.)
RealityForAll said:
@dave23, how about the antifada and blackblock masks?
It seems hoodies provide a similar function as the masks (namely, deter identification by authorities).
dave23 said:
But I do love RealityForAll's proposal to ban hoodies to protect free speech.
Censorship vs Masks & Hoodies Ban. I would prefer to retain fundamental rights, such as free speech, even if it means burdening the thugs of the left (and any right wing speech suppressors/thugs) with a mask and hoodie ban on certain occasions, for a few hours, in order to make identification easier.
dave23 said:
Half of Silicon Valley is going to catch a cold because of you. (Maybe it is Mark Zuckerberg hurling rocks in the West Bank.)
RealityForAll said:
@dave23, how about the antifada and blackblock masks?
It seems hoodies provide a similar function as the masks (namely, deter identification by authorities).
dave23 said:
But I do love RealityForAll's proposal to ban hoodies to protect free speech.
of course, if you pick just one page. and if you redefine "right" to not include religious people.
besides, you were just asking for any examples. And there you are.
Gilgul said:
ml1 look at the data itself.
https://www.thefire.org/resour...
Pretty much every one is "from the left" and those few listed "from the right" are all schools with a religious connection.
RealityForAll said:
Censorship vs Masks & Hoodies Ban. I would prefer to retain fundamental rights, such as free speech, even if it means burdening the thugs of the left (and any right wing speech suppressors/thugs) with a mask and hoodie ban on certain occasions, for a few hours, in order to make identification easier.
Yeah I think that's great and what *you* prefer is important in the debate about the First Amendment. Is there a certain percentage of the face that must remain unobstructed in order to be admitted to this free speech rally?
Here's a right-wing rally that appears to have gone off without a hitch.
ml1 said:
of course, if you pick just one page. and if you redefine "right" to not include religious people.
besides, you were just asking for any examples. And there you are.
Gilgul said:
ml1 look at the data itself.
https://www.thefire.org/resour...
Pretty much every one is "from the left" and those few listed "from the right" are all schools with a religious connection.
One page? I posted four. And went back further. OVERWHELMINGLY from the left. Time to admit the left has an issue with allowing free speech.
do you know how many universities and colleges there are? How many students?
over about 15 years FIRE uncovered about 150 canceled speeches. About 10 a year. From the left AND the right. So there isn't a crisis with regard to free speech at all, left or right. It's actually time for you to admit that in this enormous country of ours, a few dozen anecdotes doesn't amount to much of anything.
So in your world, there's no racism, but there's a crisis level suppression of conservative thought.
OK.
Gilgul said:
ml1 said:
of course, if you pick just one page. and if you redefine "right" to not include religious people.
besides, you were just asking for any examples. And there you are.
Gilgul said:
ml1 look at the data itself.
https://www.thefire.org/resour...
Pretty much every one is "from the left" and those few listed "from the right" are all schools with a religious connection.
One page? I posted four. And went back further. OVERWHELMINGLY from the left. Time to admit the left has an issue with allowing free speech.
When the Senate told Sen. Warren to sit shut up and sit down where were all the Conservative advocates of Free Speech?
If a group at a Public University invited a Holocaust Denier or a supporter of ISIS to speak there would be calls in the Legislature to cut the School's funding.
And how is this relevant?
dave23 said:
Here's a right-wing rally that appears to have gone off without a hitch.
@LOST, great hypothetical about the public university but those are not the facts before us.
LOST said:
When the Senate told Sen. Warren to sit shut up and sit down where were all the Conservative advocates of Free Speech?
If a group at a Public University invited a Holocaust Denier or a supporter of ISIS to speak there would be calls in the Legislature to cut the School's funding.
The Senate is irrelevant to the subject of this thread.
Hypotheticals are irrelevant to this thread.
That's the best response to all the left inspired censorship you can come up with?
when I looked in the FIRE database, a pretty fair number of the canceled speakers were people who were perceived as anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian. I make no value judgement on this, I'm just pointing that out, and I don't think the protesters were "leftists."
Sponsored Business
Promote your business here - Businesses get highlighted throughout the site and you can add a deal.
There have always been small groups objecting to the content of others. (Remember the PMRC?) It's important to push against it, but the breathless claims of fascism is silly. As usual, trying to shut down such speech caroms back and hits the objectors between the eyes.
Republicans just elected a president who mimics the style and content of the very popular Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. I don't see anything on the horizon indicating that their voices are in danger of being muted.