Trump ignores advise of allies & Pentagon - Stabbing the Kurds in the back
Here's a balanced assessment of the impact on the Kurds:
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/12/trump-us-withdrawal-syria-turkey-regret.html
And here's a good response from Congress:
ml1 said:
I'm in favor of withdrawing our military from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and just about every country they are occupying. But what Trump says today isn't necessarily what he'll say or do tomorrow. So let's see what he actually does.
+100
The problem with starting these wars is ending them. We go in and we can't get out.
dave23 said:
The problem with starting these wars is ending them. We go in and we can't get out.
One would have thought this lesson would have been learned in Vietnam, but obviously not.
ml1 said:
I'm in favor of withdrawing our military from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and just about every country they are occupying. But what Trump says today isn't necessarily what he'll say or do tomorrow. So let's see what he actually does.
That's fair.
The debate we aren't having as a nation is about the fact that we cannot afford to be the world's policeman any more because the costs of policing have increased dramatically since WW II. And this means that we need to stand by as suck it up on occasion when things happen that we don't like or when China or Russia orders things the way they want to from time to time.
Times we have invaded out of the goodness of our hearts = 0.
Times we have invaded due to our own interests or special interests but have used propaganda to make it look like we did it out of the goodness of our own hearts= every single war
terp said:
Times we have invaded out of the goodness of our hearts = 0.
Times we have invaded due to our own interests or special interests but have used propaganda to make it look like we did it out of the goodness of our own hearts= every single war
You must have gotten an A in Human Behavior 101
tjohn said:
dave23 said:One would have thought this lesson would have been learned in Vietnam, but obviously not.
The problem with starting these wars is ending them. We go in and we can't get out.
Indeed. And we will continue to un-learn that lesson. That said, if 2000 troops were all that was protecting Kurds from an attack from Turkey, I'd say let them stay.
They are both right (though I don't think our national security is at risk).
paulsurovell said:
Hillary this morning and a response from Aaron Mate:
Kind of remarkable that HRC would tweet something like that. The lack of self-awareness is breathtaking.
The AP is reporting that a phone call last Friday, December 14, between Trump and Erodgan, led to the pullout from Syria.
https://apnews.com/ec2ed217357048ff998225a31534df12
https://www.emptywheel.net/ nailed it.
ERDOGAN EXERCISES LEVERAGE — OR IS HE THE MESSENGER BOY?
But it wasn’t exactly — or just — Putin that finally got Trump to deliver on the payback he started delivering 14 hours after polls closed in 2016. It was Recep Tayyip Erdogan. As I noted, Trump met with Erdogan in Argentina but not — after the Michael Cohen allocution made it clear Putin was enticing Trump with a Tower deal in 2016 — Putin.
Multiple reports say a call Trump had with Erdogan on Friday was the precipitating factor. Here’s a really alarming account of that call.
That leads me to wonder what leverage Turkey, specifically, has over Trump, such that he’d pull out of Syria in response to a threat to massacre the Kurds, which will make it easy for Turkey to massacre the Kurds.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/12/20/the-moving-parts-the-walls-come-down-around-trump/
Syria was a mess to begin with. From the moment Russia became directly involved two things were clear:
1. We no longer had any chance of achieving our objectives.
2. Russia was the only foreign power with a legal basis for being in Syria.
I'm quite conflicted on this one. On the one hand, I think we could have and should have managed a somewhat more organized exit. On the other hand, there isn't any great way for a major player to cede the battlefield, so maybe just leaving is as good as anything.
When ISIS first reared its head, my thought was to let the region deal with ISIS on their own. Of course, that brought the usual chorus of, "if we don't fight ISIS in Iraq, we'll have to fight them on Main Street".
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
nan continues the RT attack on MSM - nothing new there!
Do we care about what are allies views our on our presence in Syria or Afghanistan?
I'm just plain disturbed when Trump does practically anything, but even moreso when he doesn't consult with anyone.
I'm all for getting out of wars, but I do think we have some obligation to do it responsibly.
jamie said:
nan said:nan continues the RT attack on MSM - nothing new there!
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
Emma Vigland works for TYT, not RT. Nothing to do with Russia.
paulsurovell said:
ml1 said:+100
I'm in favor of withdrawing our military from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and just about every country they are occupying. But what Trump says today isn't necessarily what he'll say or do tomorrow. So let's see what he actually does.
+1000
nan said:
jamie said:Emma Vigland works for TYT, not RT. Nothing to do with Russia.
nan said:nan continues the RT attack on MSM - nothing new there!
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
any attack on the MSM is furthering the RT and Russian propaganda agenda - it doesn't matter where you post it from.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:Okay, but there's still no plan. I don't think that's irrelevant. Doing something with the military without a plan just gets people killed. Some idiotic rant about "knee-jerk media" is beside the point.
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
When the "liberal" mainstream news unites as pro-war it's not an "idiotic rant" to call them out.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:When the "liberal" mainstream news unites as pro-war it's not an "idiotic rant" to call them out.
nan said:Okay, but there's still no plan. I don't think that's irrelevant. Doing something with the military without a plan just gets people killed. Some idiotic rant about "knee-jerk media" is beside the point.
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
That's not a substitute for an actual plan.
South_Mountaineer said:
nan said:That's not a substitute for an actual plan.
South_Mountaineer said:When the "liberal" mainstream news unites as pro-war it's not an "idiotic rant" to call them out.
nan said:Okay, but there's still no plan. I don't think that's irrelevant. Doing something with the military without a plan just gets people killed. Some idiotic rant about "knee-jerk media" is beside the point.
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
Right, because it's not trying to do that. It's about media war coverage. However, if you pay attention to the patterns of the mainstream media war coverage, you can see that it does not matter if Trump has a plan because the outcome is pre-determined.
We Know How Trump’s War Game Ends
Nothing unites our political class like the threat of ending our never-ending war
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-syria-withdrawal-772177/
You’ll hear all sorts of arguments today about why the withdrawals are bad. You’ll hear Trump has no plan, which is true. He never does, at least not on policy.
But we don’t exactly have a plan for staying in the Middle East, either, beyond installing a permanent garrison in a dozen countries, spending assloads of money and making ourselves permanently despised in the region as civilian deaths pile up through drone-bombings and other “surgical” actions.
nan said:
South_Mountaineer said:When the "liberal" mainstream news unites as pro-war it's not an "idiotic rant" to call them out.
nan said:Okay, but there's still no plan. I don't think that's irrelevant. Doing something with the military without a plan just gets people killed. Some idiotic rant about "knee-jerk media" is beside the point.
South_Mountaineer said:The video demonstrates how the knee-jerk media just spews partisan crap. The liberal mainstream media is only showing one pro-war side of the story. They are doing this because the announcement was made by Trump and they oppose anything he says. The right-wing media, on the other hand, are now supporting Trump, even if they previously supported intervention because that's what they do. No lessons from Iraq have been learned.
nan said:Except there's no plan.
Trump sucks, but getting out of Syria is a good plan, so why don't we hear that on the news?
Trump not having a plan is irrelevant to the reporting of the mainstream media.
Matt Taibbi:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-syria-withdrawal-772177/
So we’re withdrawing troops from the Middle East.
GOOD!
What’s the War on Terror death count by now, a half-million? How much have we spent, $5 trillion? Five-and-a-half?
For that cost, we’ve destabilized the region to the point of abject chaos, inspired millions of Muslims to hate us, and torn up the Geneva Convention and half the Constitution in pursuit of policies like torture, kidnapping, assassination-by-robot and warrantless detention.
It will be difficult for each of us to even begin to part with our share of honor in those achievements. This must be why all those talking heads on TV are going crazy.
Unless Donald Trump decides to reverse his decision to begin withdrawals from Syria and Afghanistan, cable news for the next few weeks is going to be one long Scanners marathon of exploding heads.
[ . . . ]
Trump’s decisions on Syria and Afghanistan will lay bare the real distinctions in American politics. Political power in this country is not divided between right and left, and not even between rich and poor.
The real line is between a war party, and everyone else.
Withdrawal is good - the fact the Trump is doing it without consulting anyone - is a bit disturbing. What is Trump's foreign policy? Or any policy - besides the wall?
The biggest fear is when Trump is behind the wheel of any decision. We only need to look at SC picks, family separation, cabinet picks, tax cuts and climate change withdrawal to see how his GREAT brain works.
For those gleeful of his decision - just proceed with caution - this is coming from Cadet Bone Spur after all.
Trump is driving a bus full of people at 90mph, at night, in the rain. Voices from the back suggest this isn't a good idea.
Trump responds by shutting off the engine and shifting into P, without slowing down first.
Trump needs to learn not to make hasty decisions. You need a comprehensive exit plan. Everyone knows that these things take time.
I'm in favor of withdrawing our military from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and just about every country they are occupying. But what Trump says today isn't necessarily what he'll say or do tomorrow. So let's see what he actually does.