Trump ignores advise of allies & Pentagon - Stabbing the Kurds in the back
The Turks see the YPG as part of the PKK. Turkey is a NATO member. As has happened many times in the past, our support for the Kurds always had its limits.
There is no reason to keep our soldiers in harm's way. Even less than usual.
South_Mountaineer said:
Yes, I disagree with abandoning them the way Trump is.
What policy would you agree with?
In a related matter, Syria is making a "comeback" among Arab states, with Egypt playing a major role:
https://news.yahoo.com/syrias-regime-path-come-cold-015720063.html
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:What policy would you agree with?
Yes, I disagree with abandoning them the way Trump is.
In a related matter, Syria is making a "comeback" among Arab states, with Egypt playing a major role:
https://news.yahoo.com/syrias-regime-path-come-cold-015720063.html
You're obviously avoiding the bulk of the post I directed to you, so why do you think you should get an answer? If you really want to know, I prefer a policy not developed with Donald Trump having the last word on U.S. foreign policy, but I lost that one and you won.
Your article indicates that the Arab states, having been let down by the United States, are dealing with the reality left to them. Looks like Assad is getting the seal of approval from fellow authoritarians, including Russia's Putin, Egypt's al-Sisi, and MOL's paulsurovell.
South_Mountaineer said:If you really want to know, I prefer a policy not developed with Donald Trump having the last word on U.S. foreign policy, but I lost that one and you won.
This is a lie.
Like the lie you told on my Twitter feed:
This report on Israel's preference for Assad, following the AFP story on Assad's "comeback" in the Arab world (see above), suggests a shift in the media narrative on Assad. All they have to do is turn the switch and the herd will follow.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:This is a lie.
If you really want to know, I prefer a policy not developed with Donald Trump having the last word on U.S. foreign policy, but I lost that one and you won.
Like the lie you told on my Twitter feed:
Which part in your Twitter feed is a lie? From the ones from me, I mean.
South_Mountaineer said:
Looks like Assad is getting the seal of approval from fellow authoritarians, including Russia's Putin, Egypt's al-Sisi, and MOL's paulsurovell.
And this is a slander.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:And this is a slander.
Looks like Assad is getting the seal of approval from fellow authoritarians, including Russia's Putin, Egypt's al-Sisi, and MOL's paulsurovell.
Good luck with that.
South_Mountaineer said:
paulsurovell said:Which part in your Twitter feed is a lie? From the ones from me, I mean.
South_Mountaineer said:This is a lie.
If you really want to know, I prefer a policy not developed with Donald Trump having the last word on U.S. foreign policy, but I lost that one and you won.
Like the lie you told on my Twitter feed:
When I get a retraction and apology for you for the lies and slander noted above, I'll be happy to resume a dialogue.
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
LOST said:
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
Probably not.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:When I get a retraction and apology for you for the lies and slander noted above, I'll be happy to resume a dialogue.
paulsurovell said:Which part in your Twitter feed is a lie? From the ones from me, I mean.
South_Mountaineer said:This is a lie.
If you really want to know, I prefer a policy not developed with Donald Trump having the last word on U.S. foreign policy, but I lost that one and you won.
Like the lie you told on my Twitter feed:
So you won't say what the lie is until you get an apology for the lie.
Works for me.
LOST said:
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
This is what Trump told Graham:
"The President will make sure any withdrawal from Syria will be done in a fashion to ensure:
1) ISIS is permanently destroyed.
2) Iran doesn’t fill in the back end, and
3) our Kurdish allies are protected."
https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1079514943152631808
For the record, in case it's not clear to anyone, @South_Mountaineer's claim that he knows who I voted for in the 2016 election is a lie.
And his calling me a "fellow authoritarian of Assad" is a slander.
Not complicated.
paulsurovell said:
For the record, in case it's not clear to anyone, @South_Mountaineer's claim that he knows who I voted for in the 2016 election is a lie.
And his calling me a "fellow authoritarian of Assad" is a slander.
Not complicated.
Nobody cares. Here you are trying to make actually important points about war and peace and you start holding your breath like a two-year old over slights perceived or real.
tjohn said:
paulsurovell said:Nobody cares. Here you are trying to make actually important points about war and peace and you start holding your breath like a two-year old over slights perceived or real.
For the record, in case it's not clear to anyone, @South_Mountaineer's claim that he knows who I voted for in the 2016 election is a lie.
And his calling me a "fellow authoritarian of Assad" is a slander.
Not complicated.
It's about clearing the air, not holding your breath.
Nothing wrong with calling out someone when they lie about you.
Experiment: @tjohn gave us Trump because he voted for Stein (or maybe Trump) and told people not to vote for Hillary. @tjohn is also a fellow authoritarian of Assad (his posts make that clear).
I suspect you'd have something to say about that.
cramer said:
LOST said:This is what Trump told Graham:
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
"The President will make sure any withdrawal from Syria will be done in a fashion to ensure:
1) ISIS is permanently destroyed.
2) Iran doesn’t fill in the back end, and
3) our Kurdish allies are protected."
https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1079514943152631808
And Lindsey believes him 100%.
LOST said:
cramer said:And Lindsey believes him 100%.
LOST said:This is what Trump told Graham:
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
"The President will make sure any withdrawal from Syria will be done in a fashion to ensure:
1) ISIS is permanently destroyed.
2) Iran doesn’t fill in the back end, and
3) our Kurdish allies are protected."
https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1079514943152631808
I do, somewhat. The Military Industrial complex, corporate, military and political is against us leaving. I think we'll see a Trump walk back. We'll be there forever. The forever war.
I hope I'm wrong.
BG9 said:
LOST said:I do, somewhat. The Military Industrial complex, corporate, military and political is against us leaving. I think we'll see a Trump walk back. We'll be there forever. The forever war.
cramer said:And Lindsey believes him 100%.
LOST said:This is what Trump told Graham:
War Hawk Lindsey Graham came out of a meeting with Trump and says he is now happy with Trump's position on Syria.
I don't think we really know what Trump intends. Maybe he doesn't even know.
"The President will make sure any withdrawal from Syria will be done in a fashion to ensure:
1) ISIS is permanently destroyed.
2) Iran doesn’t fill in the back end, and
3) our Kurdish allies are protected."
https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1079514943152631808
I hope I'm wrong.
And John Bolton at his side.
Actually, libel is written and slander is spoken. If you’re going to accuse someone of something please use the correct terms. Other than that, I’m not getting involved. Happy New Year to all.
Jerseyperson said:
Actually, libel is written and slander is spoken. If you’re going to accuse someone of something please use the correct terms. Other than that, I’m not getting involved. Happy New Year to all.
Actually, that’s the distinction in a legal context, which I doubt Paul was invoking. In the context of a couple of online interlocutors exchanging pleasantries, it’s a fine all-purpose substitute, I’d say, for the stuffier “calumny.”
Happy New Year to you, too.
If you believe in freedom and/or peace in this country, you should be prepared to be treated like trash.
paulsurovell said:
tjohn said:It's about clearing the air, not holding your breath.
paulsurovell said:Nobody cares. Here you are trying to make actually important points about war and peace and you start holding your breath like a two-year old over slights perceived or real.
For the record, in case it's not clear to anyone, @South_Mountaineer's claim that he knows who I voted for in the 2016 election is a lie.
And his calling me a "fellow authoritarian of Assad" is a slander.
Not complicated.
Nothing wrong with calling out someone when they lie about you.
Experiment: @tjohn gave us Trump because he voted for Stein (or maybe Trump) and told people not to vote for Hillary. @tjohn is also a fellow authoritarian of Assad (his posts make that clear).
I suspect you'd have something to say about that.
Doesn’t look like he gives a ****.
So an actual plan begins to be formed.
President Trump has agreed to give the military about four months to withdraw the 2,000 United States troops in Syria, administration officials said on Monday, backtracking from his abrupt order two weeks ago that the military pull out within 30 days.
Trump to Allow Months for Troop Withdrawal in Syria, Officials Say
https://nyti.ms/2Rn4qE2?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Reporter Quits NBC Citing Network’s Support For Endless War
The lengthy email covers details about Arkin’s relationship with NBC and its staff, his opinions about the mainstream media’s refusal to adequately scrutinize and criticize the US war machine’s spectacular failures in the Middle East, how he “argued endlessly with MSNBC about all things national security for years”, the fact that his position as a civilian military analyst was unusual and “peculiar” in a media environment where that role is normally dominated by “THE GENERALS and former government officials,” and how he was “one of the few to report that there weren’t any WMD in Iraq” and remembers “fondly presenting that conclusion to an incredulous NBC editorial board.”
“A scholar at heart, I also found myself an often lone voice that was anti-nuclear and even anti-military, anti-military for me meaning opinionated but also highly knowledgeable, somewhat akin to a movie critic, loving my subject but also not shy about making judgements regarding the flops and the losers,” he writes.
Arkin makes clear that NBC is in no way the sole mass media offender in its refusal to question or criticize the normalization of endless warfare, but that he feels increasingly “out of sync” and “out of step” with the network’s unhesitating advancement of military interventionist narratives. He writes about how Robert Windrem, NBC News’ chief investigative producer, convinced him to join a new investigative unit in the early days of the 2016 presidential race. Arkin writes the following about his experience with the unit:
“I thought that the mission was to break through the machine of perpetual war acceptance and conventional wisdom to challenge Hillary Clinton’s hawkishness. It was also an interesting moment at NBC because everyone was looking over their shoulder at Vice and other upstarts creeping up on the mainstream. But then Trump got elected and Investigations got sucked into the tweeting vortex, increasingly lost in a directionless adrenaline rush, the national security and political version of leading the broadcast with every snow storm. And I would assert that in many ways NBC just began emulating the national security state itself — busy and profitable. No wars won but the ball is kept in play.
“I’d argue that under Trump, the national security establishment not only hasn’t missed a beat but indeed has gained dangerous strength. Now it is ever more autonomous and practically impervious to criticism. I’d also argue, ever so gingerly, that NBC has become somewhat lost in its own verve, proxies of boring moderation and conventional wisdom, defender of the government against Trump, cheerleader for open and subtle threat mongering, in love with procedure and protocol over all else (including results). I accept that there’s a lot to report here, but I’m more worried about how much we are missing. Hence my desire to take a step back and think why so little changes with regard to America’s wars.”
Arkin is no fan of Trump, calling him “an ignorant and incompetent impostor,” but describes his shock at NBC’s reflexive opposition to the president’s “bumbling intuitions” to get along with Russia, to denuclearize North Korea, to get out of the Middle East, and his questioning of the US military’s involvement in Africa.
“I’m alarmed at how quick NBC is to mechanically argue the contrary, to be in favor of policies that just spell more conflict and more war. Really? We shouldn’t get out Syria? We shouldn’t go for the bold move of denuclearizing the Korean peninsula? Even on Russia, though we should be concerned about the brittleness of our democracy that it is so vulnerable to manipulation, do we really yearn for the Cold War? And don’t even get me started with the FBI: What? We now lionize this historically destructive institution?”
“There’s a saying about consultants, that organizations hire them to hear exactly what they want to hear,” Arkin writes in the conclusion of his statement. “ I’m proud to say that NBC didn’t do that when it came to me. Similarly I can say that I’m proud that I’m not guilty of giving my employers what they wanted. Still, the things this and most organizations fear most — variability, disturbance, difference — those things that are also the primary drivers of creativity — are not really the things that I see valued in the reporting ranks.”
Russia and Turkey hold talks in Moscow to resolve issues in Syria:
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/turkey-russia-resolved-to-clear-terrorists-from-syria/1351702
So there's more of a plan, not sounding like the original "leave the Kurds to fend for themselves" concept.
Mr. Bolton, making a visit to Israel, told reporters that American forces would remain in Syria until the last remnants of the Islamic State were defeated and Turkey provided guarantees that it would not strike Kurdish forces allied with the United States.
...
Asked about the shifting timeline on Sunday as he left the White House for meetings about border security at Camp David, Mr. Trump told reporters that he had “never said we were doing it that quickly.”
https://nyti.ms/2REdynW?smid=nytcore-ios-share
South_Mountaineer said:
So an actual plan begins to be formed.
President Trump has agreed to give the military about four months to withdraw the 2,000 United States troops in Syria, administration officials said on Monday, backtracking from his abrupt order two weeks ago that the military pull out within 30 days.Trump to Allow Months for Troop Withdrawal in Syria, Officials Say
https://nyti.ms/2Rn4qE2?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Every possible contingency, plan, was scoped out long ago by the involved agencies. The actors are known, their resources are known. The plan to really leave could have been announced they day Trump opened his mouth.
Yet, because it was Trump who opened his mouth to get out now, we have so-called liberals or progressives wringing their hands over a "premature" withdrawal. To instead stay in and wait for a plan - the only thing in memory the Military Industrial Complex, conservatives and liberals agree on. We do love our wars.
And now we are told a plan. Stay in until we're sure of success.
An eternal war.
Did you read the first line of the article you commented on? “Feeling betrayed by the United States, its Kurdish allies in Syria asked the Syrian government on Friday to protect them from possible attack by Turkey.” They are having a limited set of unpleasant options forced on them.
Your question to me is like asking, “People are jumping from the Twin Towers after the planes hit. Are you opposed to what they are doing?”
In other words, you’re asking the wrong question. The real question is, “Are you opposed to the Kurds being put in this position?” Yes, I disagree with abandoning them the way Trump is.
Your own answer to that question is obviously, “No, I’m fine with it.”