The Final Debate of 2020 (Hallelujiah!)

jamie said:

Did the Mueller team go through his tax returns?

 No.

One of the biggest lies of the night.


jamie said:

Fact-check: Did Biden call Black Americans 'superpredators'?

"Look at the crime bill, 1994, where you called them 'superpredators,' African Americans are 'superpredators,'" Trump said. "And they've never forgotten that."

This is mostly false. It was Hillary Clinton, then the first lady, who used the word "superpredator" to advocate for the 1994 crime bill that Biden co-wrote more than 30 years ago. Biden did warn of "predators" in a floor speech in support of his bill, however.

 If Trump were running against someone who voted against that bill he would be calling that person "soft on crime"


Smedley said:

Trump better but still just a B overall vs Biden B +.

 Pretty fair but I might have given Trump a B-


drummerboy said:

pillows and sheets?

 This might possibly be about what the Obama administration sold to Ukraine.  Whereas Trump got  them weapons.


Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

drummerboy said:

Walker is gonna get great grades for her performance, but it mostly has to do with Trump deciding not to be too belligerent.

 It has mostly to do with the mute button.

 not really. the mute button is not active most of the time. Just for the first two minute answer. Trump has really mostly behaved himself.

The mute button is active most of the time.

 El wrongissimo!!

 Uh, actually each candidate had 2 mins uninterrupted, and then it was like 30 secs or even 10 secs with presumably open mic. But if 30 sec > 2 mins in your math, have at believing what you believe.

 uh, this is not a math problem.


drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

 Uh, actually each candidate had 2 mins uninterrupted, and then it was like 30 secs or even 10 secs with presumably open mic. But if 30 sec > 2 mins in your math, have at believing what you believe.

 uh, this is not a math problem.

4 min < 11 min

After the first Trump-Biden debate in September devolved into a chaotic shouting match, moderators said they would mute each candidate’s microphone to allow the other to speak without interruption for two minutes at the outset of each 15-minute debate segment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-election-debate-takeaways-idUSKBN27806E


Smedley, you’re mixing orange and carats.


I was impressed by Kristen Welker. I've seen her for years in the press briefings or reporting back to the MSNBC hosts and didn't have a sense of her strengths Originally, I was disappointed that she was chosen but I thought she looked very confident in her role. She sounded fair. I wish she had pressed Trump on his taxes and asked a few questions about their positions on Roe v Wade. She could have been tougher on Trump.


I thought Trumps strategy of acting like a normal person was much more effective, even if he was lying through his teeth. I don't understand why he hasn't been doing that before, and I wonder how long it will last.

He is incapable of empathy though. That is very striking. He cannot do it. It always is about him, and how he is treated unfairly by the press, by the IRS, by China, by Obama, by everyone. 


I guess I was wrong. I assumed trump was muted more than he was because I didn’t think he was capable of being reasonably civil and not interrupting and haranguing throughout. On that count he exceeded my very low expectations. 



"President Donald Trump won the final debate against Democrat Joe Biden, but that’s not going to be enough to get him reelected, Republican pollster and strategist Frank Luntz told CNBC on Friday.

“Biden won the war,” Luntz said in a “Squawk Box” interview, predicting that Trump, with 11 days until the Nov. 3 election and more than 47 million votes already cast, does not have enough time to overcome Biden’s national and swing state polling leads.

Luntz said the candidates’ answers to the final question — what they would say in their inaugural address to the Americans who didn’t vote for them — were indicative of why Biden looks to be unstoppable.

Trump went negative, arguing why Biden would be bad for the country rather than really answering the question. “If he gets in, you will have a depression the likes of which you’ve never seen. Your 401(k)s will go to hell, and it’ll be a very very sad day for this country,” the president said.

Biden went in the opposite direction, saying, “I’m an American president. I represent all of you. Whether you voted for me or against me, I’m going to make sure you’re represented. I’m going to give you hope.”

Luntz said Biden’s positive approach compared with Trump’s forceful but negative tone is the reason the former vice president’s message appears to be winning heart and minds of American voters."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/23/gop-pollster-frank-luntz-trump-won-debate-but-biden-will-win-election.html


This discussion is a microcosm of what is wrong at the heart of our politics. Trump unleashed another firehose of egregious lies at the debate, but people are giving him a B grade. Because he didn't act like an escaped orangutan. 

This is how we got here. 


ml1 your belief that politicians are graded on their honesty is so delightfully quaint.  rolleyes

The B grade is more indicative of his demeanor and effectiveness of presenting his message. Doesn't matter that the message a simmering pot of prevarication with a soupcon of mendacity and a sprinkle of vitriol. He came across less as a blathering buffoon.

The reason he (and many liars) are successful is there are lots of people who want to believe the lies because they reinforce their own world view.


mrincredible said:

ml1 your belief that politicians are graded on their honesty is so delightfully quaint. 
rolleyes

The B grade is more indicative of his demeanor and effectiveness of presenting his message. Doesn't matter that the message a simmering pot of prevarication with a soupcon of mendacity and a sprinkle of vitriol. He came across less as a blathering buffoon.

The reason he (and many liars) are successful is there are lots of people who want to believe the lies because they reinforce their own world view.

 Like you ?????


Trump handled his lies and demagoguery in a much smoother way than the first time around.  Biden was superb, except politically quite risky in talking about shutting down the oil industry over time.  While courageous and no doubt appealing to the green and youth vote, it risks significant vote loss in the oil and gas states of Texas and Pennsylvania, among others, which could tip the election, particularly in the Senate.  I hope not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/23/how-politically-damaging-were-bidens-comments-about-closing-down-oil-industry/


Joe Biden: (34:29)
Let’s talk about what we’re talking about. What happened? Parents were ripped… Their kids were ripped from their arms and separated, and now they cannot find over 500 of the sets of those parents, and those kids are alone. Nowhere to go. Nowhere to go. It’s criminal. It’s criminal.

Kristen Welker: (34:49)
Let me ask you about in 10 seconds and then I need to ask.

Donald Trump: (34:50)
Kristen, I will say this. They went down. We brought reporters, everything. They are so well taken care of. They’re in facilities that were so clean.

Kristen Welker: (34:58)
But some of them haven’t been reunited with their families.

Donald Trump: (35:00)
They have gotten such good…
But just ask one question. Who built the cages? 

-------------------------------------------

They have gotten such good what Donny?  Interesting point Trump makes - I guess if the cages were never built - Trump wouldn't have ever been able to detain anyone?  Seems like he should be thanking Biden for building something he would of had to build anyway.


mrincredible said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

 Like you ?????

 What?

 You heard him!


drummerboy said:

mrincredible said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

 Like you ?????

 What?

 You heard him!

 I'm not sure what I'm being accused of here.

Dennis are you accusing me of falling for Trump's lies? That's pretty insulting.


mrincredible said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

 Like you ?????

 What?

 "The reason he (and many liars) are successful is there are lots of people who want to believe the lies because they reinforce their own world view."

     Like you???? Is this clear now?


Dennis_Seelbach said:

 "The reason he (and many liars) are successful is there are lots of people who want to believe the lies because they reinforce their own world view."

     Like you???? Is this clear now?

 It's very clear you are trying to insult me.


Dennis_Seelbach said:

mrincredible said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

 Like you ?????

 What?

 "The reason he (and many liars) are successful is there are lots of people who want to believe the lies because they reinforce their own world view."

     Like you???? Is this clear now?

 It's clear, but it's stupid and insulting.


mrincredible said:

Dennis_Seelbach said:

 Like you ?????

 What?

Yes. I, for one, like you. 


I think Dennis thought I was expressing some kind of admiration or approval for Trump. I was commenting on his stylistic approach which was vastly improved from the first debate.

My guess is it's far too late in the game, especially since 40 million people have already cast their vote.


I'll add one more thought for Dennis to try and explain what I'm getting at.

First of all, yes, I have definitely believed people who were lying because it was what I wanted to hear or it backed up my world view.  For instance in the 90s I tended to believe Bill Clinton was falsely accused in the whole Monica Lewinsky scandal, when it's pretty clear now he was blatantly lying about it.  There are other examples of a more personal nature.

Donald Trump's message is mendacity.  But he's figured out he can freely lie to millions of supporters by telling them things they want to hear.  Like how he's going to wrangle jobs back from China or protect America from scary foreigners.  Millions of people have been conditioned to want to hear someone tell them "It's okay, I'm with you and I'll fix this."

This message only works if he can deliver it in a convincing fashion.  He went way overboard at the first debate and I think he lost the chance to get his (dishonest) message out.  So yeah, in the debate last night he gets higher marks because he stayed on (lying) message.  That's how debates get judged... not by the honesty of the debater.

That's all I'm trying to get at.  


I think even B- is out of the question. Got my red pencil out and writing a fat C. I refuse to dumb down the curriculum for this charlatan. He's done none of the homework, and handing Kristen Welker that "apple" by complimenting her, as a bribe, could push me to a D.


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