January 6, 2021 on MOL
jamie said:
I'm just saying that sometimes it's nice staying on topic then going on a libertarian whataboutism tangent. Are you saying that you can't do anything different and that I have to restrain your hijacking tendencies?
Trump gave a speech - his followers reacted. Then you take us to Yarvin and Yemen.
I was responding to questions. Some of them were yours. If you don't like the answers it's your board. Do what you want.
flimbro said:
My man, obviously, it's not just voting. But you know that right?
The woman who lost her life yesterday believed in white supremacy especially the part that told her that she had a right to do whatever she wanted- whenever she wanted to do it. White supremacy fueled her trip to DC, white privilege pushed her up the steps of Capitol and ushered her through the doors past police, white privilege clouded her common sense as she attempted to climb through a window to gain access to an area where real unadulterated white privilege worked to maintain the economic, gender and class distinctions that kept her on the other side of that window in the first place. She died.
I feel for her. She had been lied to for a long, long time and it sunk in.
Late last night listening to CNN I heard Cuomo dismiss the idea of removing Trump from office immediately via impeachment because 'he's going to be gone on the 20th anyway, so what difference would it make'? That's a comment from someone with privilege who doesn't have skin in the game. Maybe Ms. Babbitt listened to her President earlier during the day when he asked all gathered to go to the Capitol. Maybe she thought he meant her. Maybe she thought he knew something she didn't about climbing through broken windows inside a federal building.
Now Cuomo certainly didn't vote for Trump, but he's fine with allowing him to wreak havoc for another couple of weeks- because, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect him. Maybe Ms. Babbitt would be alive today if other liberals had worked harder to remove Trump last year or the year before. But they didn't, they relied on voting and the system, and in the end, it just really didn't make much of a difference to them either way.
So, relying on the system in place or voting is not the solution. It's what you demand of your government, yourself, and anyone else who enjoys the spoils of a racist, exclusionary society.
If you didn't like what you saw yesterday then devise a plan to fix it. If what you saw sticks in your craw then change it. Don't ask for suggestions- do the work yourself. Like I said- all of this is being done for your benefit- it's your system and if it makes you uncomfortable then change it.
There is nothing actionable here. The formal argument is that we need to somehow get rid of white privilege. This is unattainable in a practical sense. This is why Flibro is always telling people to devise their own plan to fix it. He doesn't offer a solution because he doesn't have a solution. He doesn't have a solution because the solution does not exist.
But he gets to blame all of society's ills on racism and "white supremacy" and gets to make people feel bad because of their ethnic background. Nobody wants to call him on his hoo ha as he calls it because they don't want to risk being called a racist or white supremacist.
terp said:
There is nothing actionable here. The formal argument is that we need to somehow get rid of white privilege. This is unattainable in a practical sense. This is why Flibro is always telling people to devise their own plan to fix it. He doesn't offer a solution because he doesn't have a solution. He doesn't have a solution because the solution does not exist.
This is not a self-evident assertion. It sounds more like dismissing, out of hand, any efforts to address it.
terp said:
But he gets to blame all of society's ills on racism and "white supremacy" and gets to make people feel bad because of their ethnic background. Nobody wants to call him on his hook ha as he calls it because they don't want to risk being called a racist or white supremacist.
It's not saying they're the only cause of ills, it's pointing out the role of racism and white supremacy (no "scare quotes").
nohero said:
terp said:
There is nothing actionable here. The formal argument is that we need to somehow get rid of white privilege. This is unattainable in a practical sense. This is why Flibro is always telling people to devise their own plan to fix it. He doesn't offer a solution because he doesn't have a solution. He doesn't have a solution because the solution does not exist.
This is not a self-evident assertion. It sounds more like dismissing, out of hand, any efforts to address it.
I actually spent a good amount of time trying to understand what he wanted during the BLM protests over the summer. There is nothing tangible. I have tried and have received nothing but vague feedback about doing it myself.
It was pretty much the same as what he's saying in this thread. I brought up real examples of unarmed white people savagely being gunned down by police in a police violence discussion. I distinctly remember he said white folks should be concerned about them.
Meh -- you're projecting with the "don't want to risk being called a racist or white supremacist." That's mostly you.
Your challenge with thinking through international re-distributions of US-privilege/power if the US 'brings the military home', is similar to the challenge of thinking through re-distribution of White privilege/power nationally. So, it seems strange that you are critiquing this so hard when your desire to just change one big powerful thing is so similar -- but focused on different topics.
I've given you my thoughts on the former. Here's some thoughts for the latter (which I've thrown out in past conversations).
The challenge with power is it is designed to be taken by those who already have some, and distributed to those who will continue to support/maintain the current power structure. This is the current White-privilege structure.
One way to disrupt that power structure is via revolution, which takes the power from those who currently hold it, and restructures/redistributes it into a new system. I don't know if there is another way.
People with power don't usually give it away voluntarily, so I don't foresee a mass voluntary shift in the power system. ....But if it could be given away, how would that work?
Perhaps through oversight? If oversight powers are given to those who are currently at the mercy of the power system, could that work as a method of power re-distribution? The call for community oversight of policing is one example. But the result seems more like throwing one more group into a ring battling for a piece of the power-pie against several other groups, than a structural change in the power hierarchy.
terp said:
nohero said:
terp said:
There is nothing actionable here. The formal argument is that we need to somehow get rid of white privilege. This is unattainable in a practical sense. This is why Flibro is always telling people to devise their own plan to fix it. He doesn't offer a solution because he doesn't have a solution. He doesn't have a solution because the solution does not exist.
This is not a self-evident assertion. It sounds more like dismissing, out of hand, any efforts to address it.
I actually spent a good amount of time trying to understand what he wanted during the BLM protests over the summer. There is nothing tangible. I have tried and have received nothing but vague feedback about doing it myself.
It was pretty much the same as what he's saying in this thread. I brought up real examples of unarmed white people savagely being gunned down by police in a police violence discussion. I distinctly remember he said white folks should be concerned about them.
Saying you don't understand an issue isn't support for the statement I quoted and said was "not a self-evident assertion".
sprout said:
Meh -- you're projecting with the "don't want to risk being called a racist or white supremacist." That's mostly you.
Your challenge with thinking through international re-distributions of US-privilege/power if the US 'brings the military home', is similar to the challenge of thinking through re-distribution of White privilege/power nationally. So, it seems strange that you are critiquing this so hard when your desire to just change one big powerful thing is so similar -- but focused on different topics.
I've given you my thoughts on the former. Here's some thoughts for the latter (which I've thrown out in past conversations).
The challenge with power is it is designed to be taken by those who already have some, and distributed to those who will continue to support/maintain the current power structure. This is the current White-privilege structure.
One way to disrupt that power structure is via revolution, which takes the power from those who currently hold it, and restructures/redistributes it into a new system. I don't know if there is another way.
People with power don't usually give it away voluntarily, so I don't foresee a mass voluntary shift in the power system. ....But if it could be given away, how would that work?
Perhaps through oversight? If oversight powers are given to those who are currently at the mercy of the power system, could that work as a method of power re-distribution? The call for community oversight of policing is one example. But the result seems more like throwing one more group into a ring battling for a piece of the power-pie against several other groups, than a structural change in the power hierarchy.
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
I should note that flimbro rejects the idea of having people of color in charge of the police as a solution.
nohero said:
Gaslighting phony releases another video this evening.
Wow, Donny is really trying to avoid impeachment or be forced to resign in the last few days. I guess he needs the time to figure out how to pardon himself, his loyalists and his family.
nohero said:
terp said:
nohero said:
terp said:
There is nothing actionable here. The formal argument is that we need to somehow get rid of white privilege. This is unattainable in a practical sense. This is why Flibro is always telling people to devise their own plan to fix it. He doesn't offer a solution because he doesn't have a solution. He doesn't have a solution because the solution does not exist.
This is not a self-evident assertion. It sounds more like dismissing, out of hand, any efforts to address it.
I actually spent a good amount of time trying to understand what he wanted during the BLM protests over the summer. There is nothing tangible. I have tried and have received nothing but vague feedback about doing it myself.
It was pretty much the same as what he's saying in this thread. I brought up real examples of unarmed white people savagely being gunned down by police in a police violence discussion. I distinctly remember he said white folks should be concerned about them.
Saying you don't understand an issue isn't support for the statement I quoted and said was "not a self-evident assertion".
You don't understand his solution either. This is simply because it doesn't exist. It's actually very similar rhetorically to Make America Great Again. You just can't put your finger on what it means so you can project what you'd like to it.
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
sprout said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
So reparations would solve the problem? I'm reading his posts just fine. If you can read them better than I please educate me on what he's proposing.
terp said:
But he gets to blame all of society's ills on racism and "white supremacy" and gets to make people feel bad because of their ethnic background. Nobody wants to call him on his hoo ha as he calls it because they don't want to risk being called a racist or white supremacist.
I don't feel bad. Even when he's not rewarding my attention with one of MOL's best senses of humor. But I've already said no more gushing today.
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or should I say
LMFAO
terp said:
sprout said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
So reparations would solve the problem? I'm reading his posts just fine. If you can read them better than I please educate me on what he's proposing.
Perhaps if they were of sufficient size to narrow the wealth gap (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/).
Reparations that result in similar wealth to the median White family would provide about $150,000 per Black family. Or address the overall wealth-power difference, and provide an amount to get up to the average White family (which averages the wealthiest White families' ridiculous fortunes) -- resulting in about $800,000 to be provided per Black family. Do you think this could result in a good start for a more level power structure?
sprout said:
terp said:
sprout said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
So reparations would solve the problem? I'm reading his posts just fine. If you can read them better than I please educate me on what he's proposing.
Perhaps if they were of sufficient size to narrow the wealth gap (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/).
Reparations that result in similar wealth to the median White family would provide about $150,000 per Black family. Or address the overall wealth-power difference, and provide an amount to get up to the average White family (which averages the wealthiest White families' ridiculous fortunes) -- resulting in about $800,000 to be provided per Black family. Do you think this could result in a good start for a more level power structure?
I don't think it would, but I don't know why you are asking me.
drummerboy said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or should I say
LMFAO
I never said you wouldn't need to check under your bec for monsters. You seem like the type that does that already.
terp said:
drummerboy said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or should I say
LMFAO
I never said you wouldn't need to check under your bec for monsters. You seem like the type that does that already.
your view of the world is so simplistic.
terp said:
You don't understand his solution either. This is simply because it doesn't exist. It's actually very similar rhetorically to Make America Great Again. You just can't put your finger on what it means so you can project what you'd like to it.
This response says, "Don't do anything about it."
And equating it to "MAGA" shows a lack of understanding of the issue.
Terp's response is similar to the opposition I heard to the Civil Rights Acts. "You can't change what is in people's hearts by legislation".
The point isn't to change people's hearts or minds. It's to change racist practices. Racism is one of the principal control mechanisms of what Terp calls the "Cathedral" and what I call "The Ruling Class".
Further what Terp fails to understand is the Wars that he hates are fueled in part by racism. He posted a picture of a starving child. He asks where the outrage is. There is outrage but there would be a far greater amount in this country if the child was white.
drummerboy said:
terp said:
drummerboy said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or should I say
LMFAO
I never said you wouldn't need to check under your bec for monsters. You seem like the type that does that already.
your view of the world is so simplistic.
Maybe. But at least I'm not a stooge for the empire.
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that it is a problem.
Some actually favor "defunding" the police. Others favor a complete reform of policing.
Sprout believes in reparations.
You seem to think that Imperialistic wars can be ended by a stroke of the pen. What action do you suggest to bring that about?
terp said:
drummerboy said:
terp said:
drummerboy said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
or should I say
LMFAO
I never said you wouldn't need to check under your bec for monsters. You seem like the type that does that already.
your view of the world is so simplistic.
Maybe. But at least I'm not a stooge for the empire.
what does that even mean?
Credit where it's due to David Brooks. He, at least, recognizes and calls out this dominant mindset in the GOP.
And then, this week, Josh Hawley. As of Wednesday morning, Hawley was the model of what a Republican senator was going to look like in the post-Trump era. He cannily understood what the party faithful wanted. Publicity stunts. Owning the libs.
But there are dark specters running through our nation — beasts with shaggy manes and feral teeth. They have the stench of Know-Nothingism, the hot blood of the lynchers, and they ride the winds of nihilistic fury.
Read the history books. They have always been lurking in the shadows of our nation’s greatness. Hawley didn’t just own the libs, he gave permission to dark forces he is too childish, privileged and self-absorbed to understand. Hawley sold his soul to all that is ugly for the sake of his own personal celebrity.
Human beings exist at moral dimensions both too lofty and more savage than the contemporary American mind normally considers. The mob that invaded that building Wednesday exposed the abyss. This week wasn’t just an atrocity, it was a glimpse into an atavistic nativism that always threatens to grip the American soul. And it wasn’t just the mob that exposed this. The rampage reminded us that if Black people had done this, the hallways would be red with their blood.
Opinion | This Is When the Fever Breaks - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
sprout said:
One way to disrupt that power structure is via revolution, which takes the power from those who currently hold it, and restructures/redistributes it into a new system. I don't know if there is another way.
People with power don't usually give it away voluntarily, so I don't foresee a mass voluntary shift in the power system. ....But if it could be given away, how would that work?
And one of the arguments for democracy is to provide for a way for power transfers without violence, and the argument for why "peaceful transition of power" is notable and significant.
Plenty of counterpoints here, of course. One would be to ask if power is really being transferred. I'd note that power has multiple axes, and on some of those it most definitely is, while in others its not. I take issue with those who would deny anything real or substantive changes when you change who is in power. To a point I made earlier, it matters, for instance, whether or not people have safe and legal access to abortion, and if that's the sort of point you can dismiss as irrelevant, then that really says more about your own positions and privileges than about whether anything "really" changed.
OTOH, by other axes it's a real critique. While there's obviously a huge difference between, say, invading and occupying a country with hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground, and lending air support to someone else's civil war, it does remain true that both those example share a presumption that the U.S. is, should be, and should work to remain a global military superpower. If you disagree with that, voting is quite unlikely to change that.
Another counterpoint would be to ask if our vaunted peaceful transitions of power are really as consistent as we tell ourselves. There's a very strong case to be made that prior to 1965 we weren't really a democracy, and that the peaceful transitions of power prior to that relied on everyone in power acceding to the use of a great deal of violence against black Americans. And along those line, the storming of the Capitol the day after a black preacher and a Jewish man who worked closely with black politicians won their Senate races seems not quite a coincidence. When power really does shift, how peaceful, really, is the transition?
Still, this is more about voting, which conveniently aligns with the way I'm already voting and doesn't really personally inconvenience or demand much of me, so while I'd like to think the above are good points, doesn't really get to the challenge of what I, as a beneficiary of white supremacy, can or should be doing to really encourage change.
PVW said:
Another counterpoint would be to ask if our vaunted peaceful transitions of power are really as consistent as we tell ourselves. There's a very strong case to be made that prior to 1965 we weren't really a democracy, and that the peaceful transitions of power prior to that relied on everyone in power acceding to the use of a great deal of violence against black Americans. And along those line, the storming of the Capitol the day after a black preacher and a Jewish man who worked closely with black politicians won their Senate races seems not quite a coincidence. When power really does shift, how peaceful, really, is the transition?
Still, this is more about voting, which conveniently aligns with the way I'm already voting and doesn't really personally inconvenience or demand much of me, so while I'd like to think the above are good points, doesn't really get to the challenge of what I, as a beneficiary of white supremacy, can or should be doing to really encourage change.
I think the change in 1965, mentioned above, to defend and ensure voting rights, is an example of the power of voting in a democracy such as ours. It puts the lie to claims that voting doesn't matter.
sprout said:
terp said:
sprout said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
So reparations would solve the problem? I'm reading his posts just fine. If you can read them better than I please educate me on what he's proposing.
Perhaps if they were of sufficient size to narrow the wealth gap (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/).
Reparations that result in similar wealth to the median White family would provide about $150,000 per Black family. Or address the overall wealth-power difference, and provide an amount to get up to the average White family (which averages the wealthiest White families' ridiculous fortunes) -- resulting in about $800,000 to be provided per Black family. Do you think this could result in a good start for a more level power structure?
Robert Johnson, the founder of BET and the first African-American billionaire, proposes to pay $14 trillion to the Black descendents of the slave trade.
I can't believe there are people making excuses for the Trumpist mob, and also trying to deflect blame from the Trumpist GOP members. Mitt Romney's initial reaction (his "excited utterance") is powerful evidence.
Below the press balcony where I stood, looking down on the room like a fishbowl, Vice President Mike Pence had just been rushed out without explanation.
“We do have an emergency,” bellowed a police officer with a neon sash who had appeared in the middle of the chamber. Officers and doorkeepers raced around, slamming and locking the immense wooden doors. There were panicked cries for senators to move further into the room.
Senator Mitt Romney, Republican of Utah, threw up his hands in exasperation.
“This is what you’ve gotten, guys,” he yelled, referring to a dozen or so Republican colleagues who were challenging President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory, which Congress was meeting to affirm.
Inside the Harrowing Day When the Capitol Went Into Lockdown - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
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Perhaps. But it's a bloody road that leads to more destruction and suffering. One day the chickens will come home to roost.