Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news & Bible verses

Yet the power of prayer did not prevent this war. I also wonder about civilians, like children killed. Were they lacking in prayer?


African slaves had been praying for centuries to be freed from the oppressive Christians…


mtierney said:

The power of prayer in the midst of war..

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-orthodox-christmas-russia.html

What does that article have to do with the "power of prayer"?


mtierney said:

The power of prayer in the midst of war..

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-orthodox-christmas-russia.html

So, which side do you think God is on?  Both claim his support.

Honestly, if prayer had any power at all, you would think that all the folks praying for peace would have had some effect by now.


“No soul ever fell away from God without giving up prayer. Prayer is that which establishes contact with the divine power and opens the invisible resources of heaven. However dark the way, when we pray, temptation can never master us. The first step downward in the average soul is the giving up of the practice of prayer, the breaking of the circuit with divinity, and the proclamation of one’s own self-sufficiency.”
Fulton J. Sheen, Lenten Meditations with Fulton J. Sheen

and


“It is not easy to explain why God permits evil; but it is impossible for an atheist to explain the existence of goodness. How could a spiritless, soul-less, cross-less, Godless universe become the center of faith, purity, sacrifice, and martyrdom? How can decency be the decent thing if there is no God? Since God is love, why should we be surprised that want of it should end in pain, hate, broken hearts, and war?”
Fulton J. Sheen, Fulton Sheen's Wartime Prayer Book


ml1 said:

mtierney said:

The power of prayer in the midst of war..

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/world/europe/ukraine-orthodox-christmas-russia.html

What does that article have to do with the "power of prayer"?

Nothing. It's more about the Ukrainian people's attempts to push back against claims of "religious justification" for Russia's war on them.


mtierney said:

“No soul ever fell away from God witho blah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, blah, blah, blah, blah

That's all fine and well, but I will repeat the question, which side is God on?  


mtierney said:

“It is not easy to explain why God permits evil; but it is impossible for an atheist to explain the existence of goodness.
Fulton J. Sheen, Fulton Sheen's Wartime Prayer Book

This has to be one of the most astounding expressions of bigotry that you have posted here.  Just because some musty old prune of a man couldn't imagine being good without the threat of divine retribution doesn't mean that others share those same pathetic limitations.


George Pell died!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/cardinal-george-pell-dies-vatican-aged-81/101843096 

Gosh, that was sudden, so soon after his protector, Ratzinger.  (Tim Minchin is probably singing his church ditties quietly, pondering on divine justice)


https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253316/church-in-australia-reacts-with-shock-sadness-at-news-of-cardinal-pell-s-death

From the CNA article…

“In fact, he was a very pastoral priest who well understood the human stain and was more than capable of empathizing with sinners while still counseling against sin.”

Referring to Pell’s time in prison for alleged sexual abuse, Abbott added: “His incarceration on charges that the High Court ultimately scathingly dismissed was a modern form of crucifixion; reputationally at least a kind of living death.”

“In his own way, by dealing so equably with a monstrous allegation, he strikes me as a saint for our times.”



mtierney said:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253316/church-in-australia-reacts-with-shock-sadness-at-news-of-cardinal-pell-s-death

From the CNA article…

“In fact, he was a very pastoral priest who well understood the human stain and was more than capable of empathizing with sinners while still counseling against sin.”

Referring to Pell’s time in prison for alleged sexual abuse, Abbott added: “His incarceration on charges that the High Court ultimately scathingly dismissed was a modern form of crucifixion; reputationally at least a kind of living death.”

“In his own way, by dealing so equably with a monstrous allegation, he strikes me as a saint for our times.”

Given the systematic efforts to cover up sexual misconduct by priests, I can't really believe that anybody in a leadership position in the church for the last couple of hundred years merits being honored in any way.  I've no doubt that there were some exceptions, but the overwhelming majority of priests in leadership position bear responsibility for crimes that have greatly damaged the church.  How many schools closed, how many charities were defunded or underfunded because the Church was busy paying damages to victims?


tjohn said:

 How many schools closed, how many charities were defunded or underfunded because the Church was busy paying damages to victims?

Yeah, that's a serious issue. 

How many faithful have given money to the church or church charity expecting charitable works? Instead in the day their money was often to pay off victim families to shut them up or now to for recompense. 


RTrent said:

tjohn said:

 How many schools closed, how many charities were defunded or underfunded because the Church was busy paying damages to victims?

Yeah, that's a serious issue. 

How many faithful have given money to the church or church charity expecting charitable works? Instead in the day their money was often to pay off victim families to shut them up or now to for recompense. 

From the article joanne posted:

Cardinal Pell served as both archbishop of Melbourne and Sydney before being elevated to the College of Cardinals by Pope John Paul II in 2003.

As archbishop of Melbourne in 1996, he was responsible for establishing the Melbourne Response, which offered capped compensation payments of $50,000 to victims of sexual abuse at the hands of clergy.

The scheme proved controversial, with a 2015 report released by the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse recommending it be operated and administered independently of the Melbourne archbishop's office.

Cardinal Pell made several appearances at the royal commission, which ultimately found he knew of abuse by paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale in the 1980s but did not take adequate action to address it, a finding Cardinal Pell disputed.


1) Few people here really take Tony Abbott very seriously, esp now that he’s ‘left’ politics - he’s famous for eating a large raw brown onion - unpeeled and uncut - to show support for farmers, and was a terrible PM who knighted Prince Philip , and he’s yet a darling of Rupert Murdoch. 

2) All media here are constantly carrying accounts old and even new of abuse horrors from Pell’s time in Ballarat, Melbourne, Sydney as well as rumours of Vatican politics during his financial office there. 

3) He’s been denied a State funeral. The Victorian Premier quietly but curtly said ‘it would probably  much too hurtful’ for the survivors of sexual abuse to know ‘this man’ was rewarded by the State. 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-12/george-pell-death-survivors-respond-louise-milligan/101846308

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-11/cardinal-george-pell-catholic-dies-legacy/101843138 (Updated obit)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-12/abuse-victims-supporters-attend-ballarat-service-for-george-pell/101847780 


Ah!

This is the survivor account I was looking for earlier. I was just on the wrong news site. 
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/13/he-didnt-even-look-me-in-the-eye-one-survivor-on-how-george-pell-chose-the-church-over-children

You’ll also notice some links to other matters I’ve mentioned, as subheads on this article.   I guess it’s fine for Tony Abbott (who once aimed for the priesthood himself, if my memory is correct) to suggest Pell should be nominated for sainthood. Most Australians would be horrified. 


@joanne

from the link I posted yesterday….

Referring to Pell’s time in prison for alleged sexual abuse, Abbott added: “His incarceration on charges that the High Court ultimately scathingly dismissed was a modern form of crucifixion; reputationally at least a kind of living death.”

“In his own way, by dealing so equably with a monstrous allegation, he strikes me as a saint for our times.”

How do you explain this ruling? Or, is it because it just doesn’t fit your narrative  about the Catholic Church, so you reject the ruling of your High Court?  Catholics and Christians have endured persecution since Jesus was crucified, and it continues today — Ukraine for just one example.

The ultimate judge is Our Lord and that F2F has probably already taken place.



mtierney said:

@joanne

from the link I posted yesterday….

Referring to Pell’s time in prison for alleged sexual abuse, Abbott added: “His incarceration on charges that the High Court ultimately scathingly dismissed was a modern form of crucifixion; reputationally at least a kind of living death.”

“In his own way, by dealing so equably with a monstrous allegation, he strikes me as a saint for our times.”

How do you explain this ruling? Or, is it because it just doesn’t fit your narrative  about the Catholic Church, so you reject the ruling of your High Court? 

A Catholic writer on that ruling: "In the end, I think we can all take solace that the cardinal received the due process that he had a right to in the Australian legal system, and that the alleged victim was heard and had his complaints taken seriously. I think that’s all we can definitively say. Because when it comes down to it, that’s all we really know."

A Former Court Reporter’s Take On The Cardinal Pell Case | Brian Fraga (patheos.com)


Pervie Pell’s with Fulton Sheen and Pope Ratty now. 

Another shrimp on the barbie….


I would not have thought it possible but I am a little shocked that mtierney is supporting sainthood for literal child molesters now, not just their enablers like Sheen and Ratzinger.

What depravity!!!! 


It’s worth noting that the stall on Sheen’s sainthood has entered its 4th year. At what point does the Church put a stake through the old dracs heart?



"Shortly before he died on Tuesday, Cardinal George Pell wrote the following article for The Spectator in which he denounced the Vatican’s plans for its forthcoming ‘Synod on Synodality’ as a ‘toxic nightmare’."

The Catholic Church must free itself from this 'toxic nightmare' | The Spectator

Nice guy.  angry


Mtierney, thank you - it’s a good question Re the High Court case. It was actually a kind of dismissal due to media notoriety and exceptionally high levels of discussion in almost every format  all over Australia, not just Catholic Australia. At the time we had a few Catholic State Governors and former Governors who discussed their various views in widely publicised interviews (they should have known better), several Parliamentarians (who again should have known better) found coded ways to express their views, and it was becoming impossible for survivor families or Catholic communities to live calmly for a single day. 
Note, this went on for months: the build-up, speculation on his health, on witnesses, endless ‘analysis’ of every throat-clearing and sigh, speculation about related criminal and civil cases brought by survivors against Church personnel in parish and education roles…  everything was a constant loud clamour. 
In the end, the High Court declared ‘enough!’, cited some journalists and their bosses for interference/contempt/undue influence and said ‘we’re done’. Nothing had been resolved, and we were all left bewildered. I think a few survivors took their lives at that point.  We’re still dealing with the fall-out. 
Nope, not saintly during his life and definitely not saint material. ((We have a couple of Australian saints, held in very high regard. He doesn’t compare)


I’m too angry to even read the article he wrote. The charges weren’t ‘faked’ - those boys suffered, and could clearly identify their abuser. It affected their whole lives and their relationships. 

nohero said:

"Shortly before he died on Tuesday, Cardinal George Pell wrote the following article for The Spectator in which he denounced the Vatican’s plans for its forthcoming ‘Synod on Synodality’ as a ‘toxic nightmare’."

The Catholic Church must free itself from this 'toxic nightmare' | The Spectator

Nice guy. 
angry


mtierney said:

“In his own way, by dealing so equably with a monstrous allegation, he strikes me as a saint for our times.”

Jesus Christ!  What is wrong with you that you would post something like this?


On a slightly different matter, I read last night that in Canada they’ve uncovered what be might new evidence of unmarked children’s graves in the grounds of a former Catholic residential school. Incredibly heart-breaking, and triggering for the families involved and also for compassionate people everywhere. 
On our Friday evening, we helped out a stranded train passenger, who travelled from Brisbane to Helensvale with my D. She needed to get Murwillumbah, but by this stage there was little connecting public transport and she’s unhoused. We were happy to drive the 90mins.  She’s part of the Stolen Generation; her life story even since The Apology would leave you in tears. 


GoSlugs said:

Jesus Christ!  What is wrong with you that you would post something like this?

Better question is what is wrong with you?



mtierney said:

GoSlugs said:

Jesus Christ!  What is wrong with you that you would post something like this?

Better question is what is wrong with you?

No. That's arguably a worse question, because it's a failure to answer why the heck you'd equate someone who covered up for pedophiles who reported to him with Jesus' foster father, and doing a year in white collar prison with being nailed through the hands and feet on a massive cross on a hill. 


ridski said:

No. That's arguably a worse question, because it's a failure to answer why the heck you'd equate someone who covered up for pedophiles who reported to him with Jesus' foster father, and doing a year in white collar prison with being nailed through the hands and feet on a massive cross on a hill. 

You live in Maplewood, right? How do you know, with absolute certainty, that Pell was guilty? Or, as I suspect, you just might have a predilection to find a priest guilty? Having no clairvoyant abilities, I trust the process and legal system to do their jobs without prejudice. I understand, however, that any clergy member, once suspected, will forever be regarded as guilty by haters.

Animosity toward those who dedicate their lives to others as priests, ministers,  teachers, scout leaders, etc etc, place themselves in a position of vulnerability. The world we live is very quick to suspect what they are unable  or reluctant to comprehend — as religious persecution has proven for centuries.





Well, the education system was full of this kind of information - throughout both the Catholic and what we call the United Church systems. United Church includes some Methodists, some Presbyterians, some Anglicans and another group I can’t remember (Lutherans?)

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/15/a-school-principal-gave-up-everything-to-blow-the-whistle-on-a-paedophile-priest-george-pell-hung-up-on-him

I don’t know how much detail you have over there on Royal Commission. I know at the time I probably posted, waaaay upthread. Here’s this week’s article

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jan/12/george-pell-what-the-five-year-royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse-found


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