STANV said:

Has anyone had the nerve to suggest that perhaps most Afghanis prefer the rule of Muslim Fundamentalists to corrupt secularists and foreign occupiers?. 

Consider the Afghan army of 300,000. Trained by us and with more modern equipment. An Army that very  quickly melted when opposed by 75,000 Talibans.

I'm thinking the Taliban have 80% if not 90% support. Media and other differentiate Afghans from the Taliban. Comments like Afghans are trying to escape the Taliban. Actually, Afghans are Talibans.

As for we the occupiers wearing our white hats of democracy. So what? What makes anyone think forcing democracy at the end guns works? After our actions managed to kill about 50,000 of their civilians. We also need to recognize its a different society (mostly tribal), culture, religion and philosophy. Why would we think our Western style democracy or any democracy is welcome?

Look at Texas. There they have a governor and state government active in voter suppression with health policies that invite COVID sickness and death. Suppose Mexico were to invade Texas wanting to end voter suppression and implement effective and humane health policies. Would we be accepting of that considering they are the white hats, wanting to do us good? Of course not. And if Mexico did invade and manage to hold on for a few years while getting Texans to work with them, what would happen if they left? We would consider those Texans to be quislings. As do most Afghans consider those who worked with us.

As for women. I'm thinking most women there aren't that concerned about their rights. Again tribal society, culture and religion. Is that unusual? No. We also see it in Western society. Do women have any management power in the Catholic church? What about the rights of ultra- Orthodox Jewish women? Rather limited. They commute to New York from Monsey and they made to sit in the back of the Orthodox bus behind a curtain. Their men daily pray thanking God they were not born as women. They get the special women's bible. Why? Because they're used to being raised as such. Same with women in Afghanistan

RTrent said:

STANV said:

Has anyone had the nerve to suggest that perhaps most Afghanis prefer the rule of Muslim Fundamentalists to corrupt secularists and foreign occupiers?. 

Consider the Afghan army of 300,000. Trained by us and with more modern equipment. An Army that very  quickly melted when opposed by 75,000 Talibans.

I'm thinking the Taliban have 80% if not 90% support. Media and other differentiate Afghans from the Taliban. Comments like Afghans are trying to escape the Taliban. Actually, Afghans are Talibans.

As for we the occupiers wearing our white hats of democracy. So what? What makes anyone think forcing democracy at the end guns works? After our actions managed to kill about 50,000 of their civilians. We also need to recognize its a different society (mostly tribal), culture, religion and philosophy. Why would we think our Western style democracy or any democracy is welcome?

Look at Texas. There they have a governor and state government active in voter suppression with health policies that invite COVID sickness and death. Suppose Mexico were to invade Texas wanting to end voter suppression and implement effective and humane health policies. Would we be accepting of that considering they are the white hats, wanting to do us good? Of course not. And if Mexico did invade and manage to hold on for a few years while getting Texans to work with them, what would happen if they left? We would consider those Texans to be quislings. As do most Afghans consider those who worked with us.

As for women. I'm thinking most women there aren't that concerned about their rights. Again tribal society, culture and religion. Is that unusual? No. We also see it in Western society. Do women have any management power in the Catholic church? What about the rights of ultra- Orthodox Jewish women? Rather limited. They commute to New York from Monsey and they made to sit in the back of the Orthodox bus behind a curtain. Their men daily pray thanking God they were not born as women. They get the special women's bible. Why? Because they're used to being raised as such. Same with women in Afghanistan

 WOW !!!!!

tjohn said:

Why anybody thinks that the revival of an extremist Islamic regime is a good thing for China and Russia with their restive internal or bordering Muslim populations is quite beyond my comprehension.  Certainly they are enjoying seeing us embarrassed, but that is about it.

 Wasn't this the exact mistake the US made? That is, thinking the withdrawal of Russia after being defeated by the extremists was a good thing.

I notice that more than a few people are questioning whether Biden is fit to lead.  If he is not, then he is in the company of Woodrow Wilson, Reagan (2nd term) and Trump.  But I also notice that he has the presence of mind to get us out of Afghanistan.

tjohn said:

I notice that more than a few people are questioning whether Biden is fit to lead.  If he is not, then he is in the company of Woodrow Wilson, Reagan (2nd term) and Trump.  But I also notice that he has the presence of mind to get us out of Afghanistan.

 I think he suits the nation he's leading.

RTrent said:

Consider the Afghan army of 300,000. Trained by us and with more modern equipment. An Army that very  quickly melted when opposed by 75,000 Talibans.

I'm thinking the Taliban have 80% if not 90% support. Media and other differentiate Afghans from the Taliban. Comments like Afghans are trying to escape the Taliban. Actually, Afghans are Talibans.

As for we the occupiers wearing our white hats of democracy. So what? What makes anyone think forcing democracy at the end guns works? After our actions managed to kill about 50,000 of their civilians. We also need to recognize its a different society (mostly tribal), culture, religion and philosophy. Why would we think our Western style democracy or any democracy is welcome?

Look at Texas. There they have a governor and state government active in voter suppression with health policies that invite COVID sickness and death. Suppose Mexico were to invade Texas wanting to end voter suppression and implement effective and humane health policies. Would we be accepting of that considering they are the white hats, wanting to do us good? Of course not. And if Mexico did invade and manage to hold on for a few years while getting Texans to work with them, what would happen if they left? We would consider those Texans to be quislings. As do most Afghans consider those who worked with us.

As for women. I'm thinking most women there aren't that concerned about their rights. Again tribal society, culture and religion. Is that unusual? No. We also see it in Western society. Do women have any management power in the Catholic church? What about the rights of ultra- Orthodox Jewish women? Rather limited. They commute to New York from Monsey and they made to sit in the back of the Orthodox bus behind a curtain. Their men daily pray thanking God they were not born as women. They get the special women's bible. Why? Because they're used to being raised as such. Same with women in Afghanistan

 I imagine you are familiar with Malala's story. Yes she is from Pakistan but she was shot by the Taliban. 

I'm not a fan of patriarchal religions but I'm hesitant to accept the belief that women who are born into a religion do not want equality. Probably the reason why so many women in our country are either non practicing or barely practicing. 

I'm not about to defend one religion or another but the Catholic Church has women who administer in some form and the chapel veil is not required. My friend's daughter married a young man who was Orthodox and she chose to conform to the practices that she felt comfortable with. Not every Muslim woman choses to wear a hijab so clearly women around the world chose freedom from some forms of restrictions. Apparently a large percentage of us leave the faith they were born into without a second thought

Perhaps it is easier to believe that Afghani women aren't concerned about their rights. I try not to think in absolutes so I can't assume all women feel the same way. But I take no comfort in feeling that they accept the role that their tribal society forces them into.

I Am Malala: The Story of the Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban

by Malala Yousafzai, Christina Lamb 4.12 · Rating details · 477,799 ratings · 22,175 reviewsI come from a country that was created at midnight. When I almost died it was just after midday.

When the Taliban took control of the Swat Valley in Pakistan, one girl spoke out. Malala Yousafzai refused to be silenced and fought for her right to an education.

On Tuesday, October 9, 2012, when she was fifteen, she almost paid the ultimate price. She was shot in the head at point-blank range while riding the bus home from school, and few expected her to survive.

Instead, Malala's miraculous recovery has taken her on an extraordinary journey from a remote valley in northern Pakistan to the halls of the United Nations in New York. At sixteen, she has become a global symbol of peaceful protest and the youngest-ever Nobel Peace Prize laureate.

I Am Malala is the remarkable tale of a family uprooted by global terrorism, of the fight for girls' education, of a father who, himself a school owner, championed and encouraged his daughter to write and attend school, and of brave parents who have a fierce love for their daughter in a society that prizes sons. 

Morganna said:

 I imagine you are familiar with Malala's story. Yes she is from Pakistan but she was shot by the Taliban. 

I'm not a fan of patriarchal religions but I'm hesitant to accept the belief that women who are born into a religion do not want equality. Probably the reason why so many women in our country are either non practicing or barely practicing. 

I'm not about to defend one religion or another but the Catholic Church has women who administer in some form and the chapel veil is not required. My friend's daughter married a young man who was Orthodox and she chose to conform to the practices that she felt comfortable with. Not every Muslim woman choses to wear a hijab so clearly women around the world chose freedom from some forms of restrictions. Apparently a large percentage of us leave the faith they were born into without a second thought

Perhaps it is easier to believe that Afghani women aren't concerned about their rights. I try not to think in absolutes so I can't assume all women feel the same way. But I take no comfort in feeling that they accept the role that their tribal society forces them into.

I Am Malala: The Story of the Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban

by Malala Yousafzai, Christina Lamb 4.12 · Rating details · 477,799 ratings · 22,175 reviewsI come from a country that was created at midnight. When I almost died it was just after midday.

When the Taliban took control of the Swat Valley in Pakistan, one girl spoke out. Malala Yousafzai refused to be silenced and fought for her right to an education.

On Tuesday, October 9, 2012, when she was fifteen, she almost paid the ultimate price. She was shot in the head at point-blank range while riding the bus home from school, and few expected her to survive.

Instead, Malala's miraculous recovery has taken her on an extraordinary journey from a remote valley in northern Pakistan to the halls of the United Nations in New York. At sixteen, she has become a global symbol of peaceful protest and the youngest-ever Nobel Peace Prize laureate.

I Am Malala is the remarkable tale of a family uprooted by global terrorism, of the fight for girls' education, of a father who, himself a school owner, championed and encouraged his daughter to write and attend school, and of brave parents who have a fierce love for their daughter in a society that prizes sons. 

But the problem is that Malala is an exception. Making her speaking out dangerous but also a very courageous. Where are the other women speaking out? Very, very, few. What about their fathers, husbands and brothers? It seems they are overwhelmingly brainwashed from birth into acceptance.

We were in Afghanistan for 20 years and we utterly failed. Whereas in Western Germany we succeeded after a couple of years of de-Nazification even though the German public was unrelentingly brainwashed by Nazi propaganda over 15 years. What a difference.

RTrent said:

But the problem is that Malala is an exception. Making her speaking out dangerous but also a very courageous. Where are the other women speaking out? Very, very, few. What about their fathers, husbands and brothers? It seems they are overwhelmingly brainwashed from birth into acceptance.

We were in Afghanistan for 20 years and we utterly failed. Whereas in Western Germany we succeeded after a couple of years of de-Nazification even though the German public was unrelentingly brainwashed by Nazi propaganda over 15 years. What a difference.

Comparing Afghanistan to Germany is kind of silly. Germany was only a few years removed from being a thriving liberal society, so they were just returning to the status quo ante. You also have a tendency for really broad generalizations for populations of millions of people, such as characterizing the German public as being brainwashed. Same goes for the brainwashing of Afghan males.

very informative discussion of the current Afghan situation by Prof. Juan Cole. It's a bit long, but Cole knows his stuff.

We need only rewind to February 2020, when the Trump administration signed the Doha agreement with the Taliban, in which the U.S. pledged to withdraw all U.S. and NATO forces by May 1, 2021, in exchange for the Taliban’s ceasing attacks on U.S. forces, forsaking ties to groups like Al Qaeda and agreeing to hold peace negotiations with the Afghan government, which then still controlled most of the country even though it was increasingly losing ground to the Taliban. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/afghanistan-airport-explosion-happened-under-biden-traces-back-trump-ncna1277755

Jaytee said:

We need only rewind to February 2020, when the Trump administration signed the Doha agreement with the Taliban, in which the U.S. pledged to withdraw all U.S. and NATO forces by May 1, 2021, in exchange for the Taliban’s ceasing attacks on U.S. forces, forsaking ties to groups like Al Qaeda and agreeing to hold peace negotiations with the Afghan government, which then still controlled most of the country even though it was increasingly losing ground to the Taliban. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/afghanistan-airport-explosion-happened-under-biden-traces-back-trump-ncna1277755

 don't forget the 5000 Taliban prisoners Trump agreed to free.

drummerboy said:

RTrent said:

But the problem is that Malala is an exception. Making her speaking out dangerous but also a very courageous. Where are the other women speaking out? Very, very, few. What about their fathers, husbands and brothers? It seems they are overwhelmingly brainwashed from birth into acceptance.

We were in Afghanistan for 20 years and we utterly failed. Whereas in Western Germany we succeeded after a couple of years of de-Nazification even though the German public was unrelentingly brainwashed by Nazi propaganda over 15 years. What a difference.

Comparing Afghanistan to Germany is kind of silly. Germany was only a few years removed from being a thriving liberal society, so they were just returning to the status quo ante. You also have a tendency for really broad generalizations for populations of millions of people, such as characterizing the German public as being brainwashed. Same goes for the brainwashing of Afghan males.

Having been there I've seen enough.

Brainwashing is the imposing of societal norms, culture, religion, philosophy from birth. We are all brainwashed. In many Western democracies we are brainwashed into thinking democracies or democratic republics are the best political systems. Which I agree with, unlike Plato.

That is why many believe their religion is the best and the correct one. Again, taught from birth. 

Or other societies where the belief is that a theocratic form of government is best while also believing that democracies are cesspools of degenerate godlessness.

In 1945 Germany was not automatically set to be a thriving liberal society. It was our (with France and England) successful occupation inculcating our values that made West Germany so.  Whereas East Germany, well, we see what that occupation brought.

As I said, success in Germany, failure in Afghanistan.

btw - only 5% of the Afghan population voted in their presidential election.

RTrent said:

Having been there I've seen enough.

Brainwashing is the imposing of societal norms, culture, religion, philosophy from birth. We are all brainwashed. In many Western democracies we are brainwashed into thinking democracies or democratic republics are the best political systems. Which I agree with, unlike Plato.

That is why many believe their religion is the best and the correct one. Again, taught from birth. 

Or other societies where the belief is that a theocratic form of government is best while also believing that democracies are cesspools of degenerate godlessness.

In 1945 Germany was not automatically set to be a thriving liberal society. It was our (with France and England) successful occupation inculcating our values that made West Germany so.  Whereas East Germany, well, we see what that occupation brought.

As I said, success in Germany, failure in Afghanistan.

btw - only 5% of the Afghan population voted in their presidential election.

 It all comes back to control of their women though. Isn’t that the main reason mankind invented religion? I agree with you on some issues, but after the destruction of Europe people just wanted peace. Liberalism probably was the inevitable effect of the destruction of their lives by conservative/fascist politicians. People cared more for each other. It’s natural for people to become like that after going through severe trauma. I can use 9/12/2001 as an example. 
Its possible that most Afghan men secretly wished they hadn’t allowed the Americans to liberate their women. 
religion has killed more people than it has saved.

Jaytee said:

 It all comes back to control of their women though. Isn’t that the main reason mankind invented religion? I agree with you on some issues, but after the destruction of Europe people just wanted peace. Liberalism probably was the inevitable effect of the destruction of their lives by conservative/fascist politicians. People cared more for each other. It’s natural for people to become like that after going through severe trauma. I can use 9/12/2001 as an example. 
Its possible that most Afghan men secretly wished they hadn’t allowed the Americans to liberate their women. 
religion has killed more people than it has saved.

I agree with on religion. I can without organized religion.

As for Americans liberating Afghan women, it never happened for 95% of them. They have their burdens imposed upon them, with husbands, fathers and brothers assenting. 

Just caught Lucas Kance on tv - I really appreciate his point of view - here's a tweet of his from the other day:

He's also running for congress:

https://lucaskunce.com/

Here's a longer clip:

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/veteran-says-end-of-war-in-afghanistan-was-inevitable-from-the-very-beginning-119313989754

jamie said:

Just caught Lucas Kance on tv - I really appreciate his point of view - here's a tweet of his from the other day:

Here's a longer clip:

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/veteran-says-end-of-war-in-afghanistan-was-inevitable-from-the-very-beginning-119313989754

 Very well said.

Unlike George Bush whose war on terror sacrifice is for us to "keep shopping." 

I stand by the criticisms I've made of the American approach to ending foreign engagements (and, as the commander in chief, Biden's part here), and it feels redundant to point out Trump's failings on this board given the enormous anti-Trump tilt here, but one point of contrast I feel worth noting is our departure from Afghanistan under Biden vs our complete abandoning of the Kurds under Trump. While I think the Afghanistan evacuation started too late and left too many people behind, we did get tens of thousands out. I know I already noted that most of the Republicans criticizing Biden here are just lazy hyperpartisans, but it does irk me enough to see them continue their dishonest criticism that I wanted to note this. I think Biden by and large accepts his responsibility; Trump has only ever abandoned and betrayed anyone foolish enough to place their trust in him. If Republican critics want to be taken seriously, they could start by condemning the previous administration's faithlessness.

something is screwing with the timeline

RTrent said:

But the problem is that Malala is an exception. Making her speaking out dangerous but also a very courageous. Where are the other women speaking out? Very, very, few. What about their fathers, husbands and brothers? It seems they are overwhelmingly brainwashed from birth into acceptance.

We were in Afghanistan for 20 years and we utterly failed. Whereas in Western Germany we succeeded after a couple of years of de-Nazification even though the German public was unrelentingly brainwashed by Nazi propaganda over 15 years. What a difference.

If women are not speaking out, I guess it is because they are afraid to. And I guess it is conditioning. I'm always standing on a soapbox right here at home shouting "where are the women's voices!". True, I live in a country where our freedoms are taken for granted so this is a stretch, maybe apples to pomegranates, but as we watch women's reproductive rights removed in Texas, I'm yelling to every female in earshot reminding the ones who told me they didn't get involved in politics or Roe would never be overturned, or they support a women's right to chose but they aren't a one issue voter or they didn't vote. 

I recognize women are participating more than ever and using their voices BUT if is it is true that 75% of Americans support a woman's right to chose, how did we get here?

I'm kind of crossing threads here but it feels connected to me. As a matter of fact, both apples and pomegranates are red so there's that.

is anyone watching "America's Longest War" on CNN?

It's not bad, as CNN goes. Though I'm spending a good part of the time giving the finger to my TV set.

I'm actually watching several Afghanistan related documentaries and films on Showtime, a few related to 9/11.

A grim one that I watched last night was Detainee 001. Also watched United 93 and The Mauritanian.

Spike Lee's 4 part series NYC Epicenters 9/11 Through 2021 and a Half has some striking footage and interviews.

Brought me back to the moment when it began, chatting on the phone with my friend watching the news when the first plane flew into the Tower in real time. 

Remembering the beautiful Afghani vests we wore that symbolized the late '60s. An iconic image of Jimi Hendrix wearing one of the velvet and mirrored pieces of art. Recalling the Nusraty Afghan Imports store across from my apartment on Bleecker. He's still in business but moved around the corner.

A whole generation will simply see them as the Taliban. 

Morganna said:

RTrent said:

But the problem is that Malala is an exception. Making her speaking out dangerous but also a very courageous. Where are the other women speaking out? Very, very, few. What about their fathers, husbands and brothers? It seems they are overwhelmingly brainwashed from birth into acceptance.

We were in Afghanistan for 20 years and we utterly failed. Whereas in Western Germany we succeeded after a couple of years of de-Nazification even though the German public was unrelentingly brainwashed by Nazi propaganda over 15 years. What a difference.

If women are not speaking out, I guess it is because they are afraid to. And I guess it is conditioning. I'm always standing on a soapbox right here at home shouting "where are the women's voices!". True, I live in a country where our freedoms are taken for granted so this is a stretch, maybe apples to pomegranates, but as we watch women's reproductive rights removed in Texas, I'm yelling to every female in earshot reminding the ones who told me they didn't get involved in politics or Roe would never be overturned, or they support a women's right to chose but they aren't a one issue voter or they didn't vote. 

Yes, some women are afraid to speak out.

But many women supported the Taliban. It was their charm propaganda of we've changed. Other reasons are explained in the following opinions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/opinion/afghanistan-war-economy.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/31/afghanistan-combat-interpreter-baktash-ahadi-us-cultural-illiteracy/

Now they're showing us they've haven't changed. Brutal repression is back with many appointed to their new government being deplorables from their previous regime.

RTrent said:

Yes, some women are afraid to speak out.

But many women supported the Taliban. It was their charm propaganda of we've changed. Other reasons are explained in the following opinions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/opinion/afghanistan-war-economy.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/31/afghanistan-combat-interpreter-baktash-ahadi-us-cultural-illiteracy/

Now they're showing us they've haven't changed. Brutal repression is back with many appointed to their new government being deplorables from their previous regime.

re cultural illiteracy - in that CNN special last night about the war, not once in two hours did anyone mention that issue. Which I guess is just par for the course.

RTrent said:

Yes, some women are afraid to speak out.

But many women supported the Taliban. It was their charm propaganda of we've changed. Other reasons are explained in the following opinions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/13/opinion/afghanistan-war-economy.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/31/afghanistan-combat-interpreter-baktash-ahadi-us-cultural-illiteracy/

Now they're showing us they've haven't changed. Brutal repression is back with many appointed to their new government being deplorables from their previous regime.

 I agree with much of the reference to cultural illiteracy. When I traveled to faraway places, I was well aware of the image of Americans. Always did some study on religion and social customs and valued the importance of showing respect but I imagine that there is some understanding among the Afghan  population that they are dealing with soldiers and not diplomates or typical Americans. I also would guess that when Americans build schools, even though the soldiers move on, its a brick and mortar message.

You may be right that some women support the Taliban and see them as more familiar than our military, the devil you know, but my deliberate use of that phrase is to link their fear to the prevailing patriarchal religion. Hard to argue with the Taliban if one believes they have God on their side.

Still, I cling to the belief that there is a yearning in the hearts of all women  for freedom and equality. I may romanticize the notion, at least it leaves me treasuring the freedom that I have. 

I found this beautiful protest by Afghan women. 

https://mymodernmet.com/afghan-women-traditional-dress-protest/

She may possibly, now, represent the majority of Afghan women -

Goljuma was contemptuous of Western leaders who said they were trying to make Afghanistan a better place for the people. "I don't know anything about their mission. They destroyed the country," she said.

She was incredulous when I asked her about the opportunities that women were able to take and now are heartbroken to lose. "So many of our people suffered a lot while they were here. They killed our husbands, our brothers and our sons," she said. "I like the Taliban because they respect Islam. Women like me are not like women in Kabul."

Development, like democracy, cannot come from the barrel of a gun. The West had victories along the way. Indeed, a generation of urban men and women were educated and had their horizons transformed. But those benefits did not reach poor and barely educated people in the countryside like Goljuma's family.

When the Taliban first seized power in 1996, they used violence to enforce their religious and cultural beliefs. Now, most Afghans are too young to remember the years before 9/11 and the invasion.

The Taliban are welcome now because of excesses by the corrupt former government and its supporting criminal warlords. The grass always seems greener on that other pasture.

Considering Taliban excesses, which many have forgotten and which seem to be coming back, its possible the Taliban will lose support thereby enabling their overthrow. That needs to be done by the Afghan people, not by foreign occupiers. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-58698895