Finally - an end to the Afghan war?
drummerboy said:
no, no, no.....
Well, I certainly respect your right to be wrong.
For anyone who might be interested
Wikipedia:Soviet Withdrawal From Afghanistan
Klinker said:
drummerboy said:
no, no, no.....
Well, I certainly respect your right to be wrong.
For anyone who might be interested
Wikipedia:Soviet Withdrawal From Afghanistan
just because we both fought in Afghanistan hardly means the two efforts are comparable.
drummerboy said:
just because we both fought in Afghanistan hardly means the two efforts are comparable.
They are two examples of military withdrawal, one done well and one done poorly. As such, regardless of the location, they are in fact, comparable.
This withdrawal will be taught for the next century in military academies around the world as an example of what not to do.
Klinker said:
drummerboy said:
just because we both fought in Afghanistan hardly means the two efforts are comparable.
They are two examples of military withdrawal, one done well and one done poorly. As such, regardless of the location, they are in fact, comparable.
This withdrawal will be taught for the next century in military academies around the world as an example of what not to do.
really? Did the Russians devote their time trying to transform Afghanistan into a democracy and build an army from scratch? Which army then utterly failed to defend the country?
Yeah - they're so similar. Analogy fail.
As for "what not to do" - I have yet to hear anyone explain what should have been done instead. And if you can't do that, calling it "what not to do" is kind of empty. And, btw, any examples of what should have been done had to have been offered months ago, not now.
Anyway, the Afghan war seems to be a ripe subject for a Truth Commission. Otherwise, we'll just do it again.
drummerboy said:
really? Did the Russians devote their time trying to transform Afghanistan into a democracy and build an army from scratch? Which army then utterly failed to defend the country?
Yeah - they're so similar. Analogy fail.
As for "what not to do" - I have yet to hear anyone explain what should have been done instead. And if you can't do that, calling it "what not to do" is kind of empty. And, btw, any examples of what should have been done had to have been offered months ago, not now.
Man did you even read my post???
I said the WITHDRAWALS are comparable.
Honestly, this all gets a little boring after a while.
Klinker said:
Man did you even read my post???
I said the WITHDRAWALS are comparable.
Honestly, this all gets a little boring after a while.
More than you think, because the mujahideen kicked Soviet **** all the way to the bridge that separated them.
Klinker said:
drummerboy said:
really? Did the Russians devote their time trying to transform Afghanistan into a democracy and build an army from scratch? Which army then utterly failed to defend the country?
Yeah - they're so similar. Analogy fail.
As for "what not to do" - I have yet to hear anyone explain what should have been done instead. And if you can't do that, calling it "what not to do" is kind of empty. And, btw, any examples of what should have been done had to have been offered months ago, not now.
Man did you even read my post???
I said the WITHDRAWALS are comparable.
Honestly, this all gets a little boring after a while.
how can the withdrawals be comparable when the history of how they got there is completely different? and how the surrounding political and military environment was completely different?
honestly.
I could explain it to you but it’s clear you are not interested. Carry on.
So, Klinker how should this have played out? As it did or the alternative which is more or less "we know that we failed to create a power alternative to the Taliban despite 20 years, thousands of lives and billions of dollars, so therefore, we are going to immediately evacuate those who helped us because we know that this house of cards is going to collapse without a fight."?
I know you are right about everything both factual and moral, but I think a reasonable person might have expected the government forces to offer some sort of resistance.
Klinker said:
I could explain it to you but it’s clear you are not interested. Carry on.
no. please do. explain to us how two wars that had nothing in common in terms of how they were carried out were comparable. I am most interested.
also, what tjohn said.
The Soviets were very obviously "chased out".
As the U.S. leaves, the Taliban was ready to wait until that exit was complete - the leaders of the Afghan government packed their bags and ran out ahead of time, creating the panic. The Taliban is still just waiting and not impeding the U.S. operation, so far as we know right now.
While pundits are using comparisons to Vietnam, in that country the U.S. ended its combat operations at the end of 1973, and the fall of Saigon was in 1975. In Afghanistan, the Afghan government compressed that process into a few days.
drummerboy said:
here's a good post that cuts through a lot of the b.s. The author is (was?) a NatSec guy.
“A Couple of Items to Keep in Mind”: The media are bad and out to embarrass Biden. To be really honest and really fair, the U.S. was in Afghanistan for Afghans. Collapse was swift and chaotic after senior Afghan leadership abandoned their country. The mujahadeen are a bulwark the U.S. should embed with advisers. Only Afghans can ultimately determine what Afghanistan will be.
What other BS-cutting did I miss?
DaveSchmidt said:
drummerboy said:
here's a good post that cuts through a lot of the b.s. The author is (was?) a NatSec guy.
“A Couple of Items to Keep in Mind”: The media are bad and out to embarrass Biden. To be really honest and really fair, the U.S. was in Afghanistan for Afghans. Collapse was swift and chaotic after senior Afghan leadership abandoned their country. The mujahadeen are a bulwark the U.S. should embed with advisers. Only Afghans can ultimately determine what Afghanistan will be.
What other BS-cutting did I miss?
depends on what you consider b.s.
drummerboy said:
depends on what you consider b.s.
I was asking you, so whatever BS that you thought the NatSec guy cut.
DaveSchmidt said:
drummerboy said:
depends on what you consider b.s.
I was asking you, so whatever BS that you thought the NatSec guy cut.
I think that in comparison to some the narratives we're getting from the media, the entire article cuts through the b.s. of their coverage.
Funny how amidst the MSM coverage, I've yet to hear Dubya's name mentioned, except maybe in the most cursory of ways.
drummerboy said:
I think that in comparison to some the narratives we're getting from the media, the entire article cuts through the b.s. of their coverage.
The question was: Did the list of highlights I took away from the article leave out any of the BS that the article cut through? I ask because, while I tried to be fair, it didn’t seem like a lot to me, and I could be missing what you saw in it. “The entire article,” which I’ve read twice, isn’t helping me.
drummerboy said:
Well, YMMV
Ditto, I suppose, for the mileage of “no. please do. explain.” Fair enough.
Drunk high schoolers pull out more effectively than our military.
Anyway, Biden did the right thing in the big picture. Perhaps this was flubbed tactically, but the Taliban was going to move in before too long.
If you want to blame someone, blame the people that got us into this mess and those that sang the praises of the Afghan forces we built there.
One observation. Do you ever notice that the only time our corporate press focuses on human rights abroad is when we want to invade a country, or shudder to think, end an occupation? People were dying in various degrees throughout the war. We have allies with records that rival those of the Taliban. We just don't talk about it. It comes across as straight up propaganda.
I suspect that even the Taliban were surprised at how quickly the house of cards collapsed.
Why Trump withdrew 15k troops before embassy staff and translators were evacuated is the main issue. With that force in place in Kabul, things would have gone a bit more smoothly. Cutting back to 2500 troops (apparently a compromise with military advisors) was drastic and basically gave the green light to the Taliban to start cutting deals with tribal leaders and gearing up for their takeover. But Obama could have ended it. W could have ended it (or not begun it as a nation-building exercise). Plenty of blame to go around. The bright side (if there is any), should this lead to an Afghan civil war a lot of nations bordering on Afghanistan are going to want help from the international community in resettling them, including China and Russia's vassal states (Turkmenistan). That means seeking US and European cooperation.
dave said:
Why Trump withdrew 15k troops before embassy staff and translators were evacuated is the main issue. With that force in place in Kabul, things would have gone a bit more smoothly. Cutting back to 2500 troops (apparently a compromise with military advisors) was drastic and basically gave the green light to the Taliban to start cutting deals with tribal leaders and gearing up for their takeover. But Obama could have ended it. W could have ended it (or not begun it as a nation-building exercise). Plenty of blame to go around. The bright side (if there is any), should this lead to an Afghan civil war a lot of nations bordering on Afghanistan are going to want help from the international community in resettling them, including China and Russia's vassal states (Turkmenistan). That means seeking US and European cooperation.
The news coverage of the last week has been horrendous, if you ask me. And the lack of acknowledgement of the effects of Trump's Taliban "deal" has been one of the worst offenses.
Not sure of the appropriate comment, but this might have been expected:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/18/afghan-refugee-debate-fractures-gop-506135
STANV said:
Not sure of the appropriate comment, but this might have been expected:
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/18/afghan-refugee-debate-fractures-gop-506135
I had to stop reading when they quoted Roger Stone.
Politico is just awful.
drummerboy said:
The news coverage of the last week has been horrendous, if you ask me. And the lack of acknowledgement of the effects of Trump's Taliban "deal" has been one of the worst offenses.
Indeed.
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here's a good post that cuts through a lot of the b.s. The author is (was?) a NatSec guy.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/2021/08/16/since-americans-have-suddenly-discovered-afghanistan-a-couple-of-items-to-keep-in-mind-as-the-news-media-frenzy-escalates/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+balloon-juice+%28www.balloon-juice.com%29