Finally - an end to the Afghan war?

Klinker said:

drummerboy said:

 Yeah, Trump had little to do with this fiasco. And Biden should fire a sh!t ton of people for lying to him.

 ????  Trump announced that the US would be withdrawing on a timeline that wouldn't have even allowed for the removal of the heavy equipment.  US soldiers would have been burning Patriot missile batteries to keep them from falling into Taliban hands.

There is plenty of blame to spread around for the general conduct of the Afghan War but, when it comes to the course of this disastrous withdrawal, Trump clearly screwed the pooch and there was nothing that Biden (or anyone else) could do to unscrew it.

 horsepoop. Biden wasn't bound by whatever Trump decided. If he thought there was a better way to withdraw, he could have done it.

The fact is that there was no better way to withdraw. And how much war materiel could we have taken with us? We had to leave supplies for the Afghan army. The Taliban was fated to get tons of armaments no matter what.

tjohn said:

Klinker said:

Whatever it’s shortcomings, Trumps refusal to include the Afghan government in peace negotiations guaranteed its imminent demise. 

 Trying to hang the blame on Trump is pointless.  The writing was on the wall years ago - started during the Bush Administration.

 This. Didn't matter who was President after GWB landed us there, the choices of what to do and how to continue (or not) ranged from bad to worse. Biden is just ripping off the band-aid. 

Of course Dems gonna blame Trump and Repubs gonna blame Biden and Obama, but that's just the usual noise.  

Biden's going to speak at 3:45 today. This should be interesting.

drummerboy said:

 horsepoop. Biden wasn't bound by whatever Trump decided. If he thought there was a better way to withdraw, he could have done it.

You just aren't paying attention.  The withdrawal was already going at a precipitous and panicked pace.  There was no turning back without dumping at least 10,000 combat troops back into the country and that, politically speaking, was not something that was going to happen.  

Military deployments aren't just a matter of political decisions, there's a little something called the Science of Logistics that also plays a role.

drummerboy said:

The fact is that there was no better way to withdraw. And how much war materiel could we have taken with us? We had to leave supplies for the Afghan army. The Taliban was fated to get tons of armaments no matter what.

Its one thing to leave a humvee for the Talibamans, its another thing to leave a sophisticated anti aircraft system. All armaments are not created equal. 

One thing is clear and it is that y'all have been spending way WAY too much time watching cable news.

Smedley said:

tjohn said:

Klinker said:

Whatever it’s shortcomings, Trumps refusal to include the Afghan government in peace negotiations guaranteed its imminent demise. 

 Trying to hang the blame on Trump is pointless.  The writing was on the wall years ago - started during the Bush Administration.

 This. Didn't matter who was President after GWB landed us there, the choices of what to do and how to continue (or not) ranged from bad to worse. Biden is just ripping off the band-aid. 

Of course Dems gonna blame Trump and Repubs gonna blame Biden and Obama, but that's just the usual noise.  

 Which is how we end up in our most pointless military adventures - Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan to name a few.

Smedley said:

tjohn said:

Klinker said:

Whatever it’s shortcomings, Trumps refusal to include the Afghan government in peace negotiations guaranteed its imminent demise. 

 Trying to hang the blame on Trump is pointless.  The writing was on the wall years ago - started during the Bush Administration.

 This. Didn't matter who was President after GWB landed us there, the choices of what to do and how to continue (or not) ranged from bad to worse. Biden is just ripping off the band-aid. 

Of course Dems gonna blame Trump and Repubs gonna blame Biden and Obama, but that's just the usual noise.  

Not sure how to appropriately talk about the domestic politics of this (it feels extremely solipsistic to talk about Afghanistan in these terms given the actual people there dealing with the consequences), but acknowledging that problem and going forward anyway, I'll note that in terms of domestic politics, I don't actually think this will matter. In the short term Republicans will probably score some points, but I think the American public checked out of this long ago. 

Klinker said:

One thing is clear and it is that y'all have been spending way WAY too much time watching cable news.

 What do you mean?  Have you seen any of the coverage on MSNBC?  What have they been saying today that you disagree with?  Or are you just making assumptions?

Prediction: there will be a lot more attention paid to Pakistan going forward.

I remember vividly having a big department meeting at work the week after 9/11 as a way for people to talk about their reactions, emotions, etc.  And I commented that my concern was that the U.S. would start a war in a country that didn't have anything to do with the attacks on the WTC, and as a result we'd lose a lot of lives and accomplish nothing to address what had happened on 9/11

and considering almost all the attackers were Saudis, we indeed attacked not one, but two countries not responsible for the WTC attacks.  But even in my cynicism, I had no idea how long we'd be in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It was long past time to leave, and what happened this week was bound to happen if we stayed another month, or year, or decade, or century.  This war was lost before it even started, so Biden was merely accepting the inevitable.

jamie said:

 What do you mean?  Have you seen any of the coverage on MSNBC?  What have they been saying today that you disagree with?  Or are you just making assumptions?

 Nope.  I don't watch TV news.  I am making assumptions but what else could explain such a gross misunderstanding of the situation and such a dogmatic adherence to that misunderstanding?

If someone will explain how Biden could have undone the damage caused by Trump's "Christmas Withdrawal" I am all ears.

What a crazy world!  Who would have thought that, in the Summer of 2021, I would be defending Great Uncle Grabby against the unfounded attacks of a bunch of conservative dems?

and here's a good commentary on why we should be ignoring just about any mainstream pundit now weighing in on Afghanistan.

The Afghanistan blame game begins — and the media immediately ignores what triggered this disaster 

As Afghanistan falls, the mainstream media shows no self-awareness of how a pro-war bias helped lead to this mess

For those of us who remember well how the mainstream media enthusiasm for war helped fuel not just this ill-advised war in Afghanistan twenty years ago, but the even bigger debacle in Iraq, the current media narrative is both bewildering and exhausting.

To be clear, there are some errors Biden made in withdrawing. Critics focused on the Afghans trying to flee the country without help from Americans are 100% right, and every effort should be made to get refugees to safety. Still, this larger media outrage over the withdrawal is a dark reminder of the pro-war bias in the press that helped create this mess in the first place: luring the American public into thinking a war in Afghanistan could ever end in any other way.

Klinker said:

jamie said:

 What do you mean?  Have you seen any of the coverage on MSNBC?  What have they been saying today that you disagree with?  Or are you just making assumptions?

 Nope.  I don't watch TV news.  I am making assumptions but what else could explain such a gross misunderstanding of the situation and such a dogmatic adherence to that misunderstanding?

If someone will explain how Biden could have undone the damage caused by Trump's "Christmas Withdrawal" I am all ears.

Are you describing yourself?  You, alone, are insisting that Trump is somehow responsible for the chaotic, sudden return of the Taliban.  It seems to me that the Taliban have been reasserting themselves for years and the events of the last couple of weeks represent removing the veneer from our willful self-deception.

The failure started when we invaded Afghanistan with no clear exit strategy.  Had the goal been to get Bin Laden, kill as many Taliban as possible and get out, the outcome surely would have been no worse than what is happening now. 

Unfortunately, mistakes were made early on and it ended up taking forever to get Bin Laden.

I suppose that if we want to pacify places like Afghanistan, we will have to do it Roman style (i.e, Carthage).

Roman style will return soon enough in response to human calamities triggered by climate change.

ml1 said:

and here's a good commentary on why we should be ignoring just about any mainstream pundit now weighing in on Afghanistan.

The Afghanistan blame game begins — and the media immediately ignores what triggered this disaster 

As Afghanistan falls, the mainstream media shows no self-awareness of how a pro-war bias helped lead to this mess

For those of us who remember well how the mainstream media enthusiasm for war helped fuel not just this ill-advised war in Afghanistan twenty years ago, but the even bigger debacle in Iraq, the current media narrative is both bewildering and exhausting.

To be clear, there are some errors Biden made in withdrawing. Critics focused on the Afghans trying to flee the country without help from Americans are 100% right, and every effort should be made to get refugees to safety. Still, this larger media outrage over the withdrawal is a dark reminder of the pro-war bias in the press that helped create this mess in the first place: luring the American public into thinking a war in Afghanistan could ever end in any other way.

Unlike previous great power adventures in Afghanistan, we initially enjoyed an intoxicating degree of military success.  However, we were unable to parlay the initial joy (in Kabul, at least) over the ouster of the Taliban into a stable successor government.

there's at least one person blaming Trump for how quickly the Afghanistan government fell.

UK defense secretary says that Trump's deal with the Taliban was 'rotten' and that the international community will likely 'pay the consequences'

what do I know?  I'm no expert.  But I have to wonder if the deal with the Taliban is the reason the 300,000 member military basically put down their weapons and walked away this past week.

ml1 said:

there's at least one person blaming Trump for how quickly the Afghanistan government fell.

UK defense secretary says that Trump's deal with the Taliban was 'rotten' and that the international community will likely 'pay the consequences'

what do I know?  I'm no expert.  But I have to wonder if the deal with the Taliban is the reason the 300,000 member military basically put down their weapons and walked away this past week.

The American public is tired of the forever wars.  How else was this going to play out?  Another surge to push back the Taliban.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the Taliban agree to negotiate in good faith?

tjohn said:

Are you describing yourself?  You, alone, are insisting that Trump is somehow responsible for the chaotic, sudden return of the Taliban.  

The Taliban were probably going to regain power either way.  What I am talking about is the disastrous way the American withdrawal was conducted, a withdrawal that began under Trump and ended under Biden.

ml1 said:

there's at least one person blaming Trump for how quickly the Afghanistan government fell.

UK defense secretary says that Trump's deal with the Taliban was 'rotten' and that the international community will likely 'pay the consequences'

what do I know?  I'm no expert.  But I have to wonder if the deal with the Taliban is the reason the 300,000 member military basically put down their weapons and walked away this past week.

That 300k number is apparently bogus too. Not sure of the exact numbers, but a large percentage of that number are police, not military. (so said a TV talking head today)

tjohn said:

The American public is tired of the forever wars.  How else was this going to play out?  Another surge to push back the Taliban.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the Taliban agree to negotiate in good faith?

 I agree. But maybe there was a way to buy a few weeks to evacuate refugees if the military put up some resistance. Or maybe there was no chance they were ever going to fight. 

Klinker said:

tjohn said:

Are you describing yourself?  You, alone, are insisting that Trump is somehow responsible for the chaotic, sudden return of the Taliban.  

The Taliban were probably going to regain power either way.  What I am talking about is the disastrous way the American withdrawal was conducted, a withdrawal that began under Trump and ended under Biden.

 "probably"?

"probably"?

drummerboy said:

 "probably"?

"probably"?

 Its an infinite universe.

Klinker said:

tjohn said:

Are you describing yourself?  You, alone, are insisting that Trump is somehow responsible for the chaotic, sudden return of the Taliban.  

The Taliban were probably going to regain power either way.  What I am talking about is the disastrous way the American withdrawal was conducted, a withdrawal that began under Trump and ended under Biden.

 Ah, so the problem is that we forgot to negotiate the "peace with honor" clause whereby the Taliban behaves for x months before taking over.  History tells us that the Afghans slaughter foreign invaders as they retreat.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

Klinker said:

One thing is clear and it is that y'all have been spending way WAY too much time watching cable news.

 If you don't watch cable news, how do you know what they're telling us?

tjohn said:

 Ah, so the problem is that we forgot to negotiate the "peace with honor" clause whereby the Taliban behaves for x months before taking over.  History tells us that the Afghans slaughter foreign invaders as they retreat.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

 No, the problem is that, from a military perspective, we didn't set up an orderly withdrawal.  There is a difference between a retreat and a rout.  By announcing an arbitrary date for US withdrawal, without even consulting with military leaders, Trump turned what could have been a manageable withdrawal into an epic disaster.

Here, let me make this simple for you.  Compare the US withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021 to the Soviet withdrawal in 1989. 

One was a retreat, the other is a rout.

drummerboy said:

 If you don't watch cable news, how do you know what they're telling us?

 I'm just guessing.  Plus my Dad watches Tucker Maddow so I get a recap of all that nonsense every afternoon on the phone.

I thought Biden gave a good speech.

Klinker said:

tjohn said:

 Ah, so the problem is that we forgot to negotiate the "peace with honor" clause whereby the Taliban behaves for x months before taking over.  History tells us that the Afghans slaughter foreign invaders as they retreat.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_retreat_from_Kabul

 No, the problem is that, from a military perspective, we didn't set up an orderly withdrawal.  There is a difference between a retreat and a rout.  By announcing an arbitrary date for US withdrawal, without even consulting with military leaders, Trump turned what could have been a manageable withdrawal into an epic disaster.

 no, no, no

Any date for withdrawal would be "arbitrary". And if I were Trump, I probably wouldn't listen to the military either - they've been lying to us for twenty years.

The only thing that really got botched was the evacuation of Afghanis. Biden could have done a much better job of that - though as he said today, there was some resistance from the Afghan government (such as it was) to delay evacuations.

Well, the other stuff that got botched was the fact that Biden repeated happy-talk claims about what the future would hold for Afghanistan. Not sure if anyone is going to care about this in 2024, but he sure gave a lot of raw material for R attack ads.