Credit to our Right-Wingnuts

Wow.  So, this is just tribal?  You would have been fine if the same tactic was used to lock the accounts of BLM protesters,  leaders, and corporations supporting them?  

For all the talk about Trump being a totalitarian,  I don't believe that type of action ever came up.  I'm happy to be proved wrong.  Removing access to services needed to survive in modern society should not be taken lightly.

I fear the term terrorist has lost all meaning.


terp said:

Wow.  So, this is just tribal?  You would have been fine if the same tactic was used to lock the accounts of BLM protesters,  leaders, and corporations supporting them?  

For all the talk about Trump being a totalitarian,  I don't believe that type of action ever came up.  I'm happy to be proved wrong.  Removing access to services needed to survive in modern society should not be taken lightly.

I fear the term terrorist has lost all meaning.

You should probably read the responses, and consider the specific facts, before going with the analogy to BLM protesters.


I don't know much about the Canadian Emergencies Act, but at first blush the ability to freeze bank accounts without the need for a court order seems like it lends itself to many of the same dangers as civil forfeiture here in the US? How long do the accounts get frozen for, and what recourse do the owners of the frozen accounts have to retrieve their money -- either after the emergency is over or if they believe they were incorrectly targeted?


PVW said:

I don't know much about the Canadian Emergencies Act, but at first blush the ability to freeze bank accounts without the need for a court order seems like it lends itself to many of the same dangers as civil forfeiture here in the US? How long do the accounts get frozen for, and what recourse do the owners of the frozen accounts have to retrieve their money -- either after the emergency is over or if they believe they were incorrectly targeted?

from the statement, as long as the institution is seen as "acting in good faith", there is no recourse.  It would be interesting to see people legally challenge these steps without access to their own funds.  


terp said:

Wow.  So, this is just tribal?  You would have been fine if the same tactic was used to lock the accounts of BLM protesters,  leaders, and corporations supporting them?  

For all the talk about Trump being a totalitarian,  I don't believe that type of action ever came up.  I'm happy to be proved wrong.  Removing access to services needed to survive in modern society should not be taken lightly.

I fear the term terrorist has lost all meaning.

how did I know this was going to be the response?

If the BLM protests had blockaded cities and caused economic harm equivalent to the truckers' protests then yes, the same tactic should have been used.

But BLM did not have that kind of effect. Not even freaking close.

again - failure to analogize dooms your arguments.



Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.


terp said:

Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.

The non-peaceful elements were, rightly, arrested. The peaceful elements were often, wrongly, also arrested or met with disproportionate force.


PVW said:

terp said:

Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.

The non-peaceful elements were, rightly, arrested. The peaceful elements were often, wrongly, also arrested or met with disproportionate force.

I don't think that's true.  I mean certainly arrests were made, but I don't recall a lot of prosecutions.   I mean does anyone remember Chaz?

Back to the point.  Trudeau is acting like a dictator.


14000 people were arrested for the 2020 BLM protests.

terp said:

PVW said:

terp said:

Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.

The non-peaceful elements were, rightly, arrested. The peaceful elements were often, wrongly, also arrested or met with disproportionate force.

I don't think that's true.  I mean certainly arrests were made, but I don't recall a lot of prosecutions.   I mean does anyone remember Chaz?

Back to the point.  Trudeau is acting like a dictator.


drummerboy said:

14000 people were arrested for the 2020 BLM protests.

terp said:

PVW said:

terp said:

Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.

The non-peaceful elements were, rightly, arrested. The peaceful elements were often, wrongly, also arrested or met with disproportionate force.

I don't think that's true.  I mean certainly arrests were made, but I don't recall a lot of prosecutions.   I mean does anyone remember Chaz?

Back to the point.  Trudeau is acting like a dictator.

How many were prosecuted?  How many were denied access to their funds?


terp said:

PVW said:

terp said:

Right.  I forgot.  Those were peaceful protests.

The non-peaceful elements were, rightly, arrested. The peaceful elements were often, wrongly, also arrested or met with disproportionate force.

I don't think that's true.  I mean certainly arrests were made, but I don't recall a lot of prosecutions.   I mean does anyone remember Chaz?

Back to the point.  Trudeau is acting like a dictator.

Again, you should look into the facts before making an assumption about the BLM protests (nationwide, by the way, not just "Chaz") and criminality.

As for what emergency powers are necessary, you can't talk about it in the abstract. What actions of the "Canadian" "truckers" are being addressed with those emergency powers, and what are the actions being taken.

Paul Krugman provides some good context in today's NY Times. I'll just quote some parts, but there's more in there. Here's the "gift link" so anyone can read it (you're welcome).

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/opinion/canada-protests-black-lives-matter.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DPDm8eiOMNAo6B_EGKbqNlbtc6miyBQ8NMK6M0AfZ2x-RcekhsVQSz556NhIgIOWM1tYe3FCsQ7q76YIoZo3Xsf3Xrb6B23qG-tBaLd2HrUKOM1XNyOA5noMZ6cVCpjmhYw6iUDrVwidJ6ia8jBZoqTCwSJ3Xf54meABh7OtmEaxzW-1N2D7kfAWeP6Ibav7EQcwxSCkbET2d85Qs_7dBcOtAQOcXvPkJqOZq-0fhKVDsefMr-DIYxRoPUi7xrrbbIzBSKw8G3zPkwf75G9DOmiLT1yodF-GvV5vUakA&smid=url-share

On Sunday the Canadian police finally cleared away anti-vaccine demonstrators who had been blocking the Ambassador Bridge between Detroit and Windsor, a key commercial route that normally carries more than $300 million a day in international trade. Other bridges are still closed, and part of Ottawa, the Canadian capital, is still occupied.

The diffidence of Canadian authorities in the face of these disruptions has been startling to American eyes. Also startling, although not actually surprising, has been the embrace of economic vandalism and intimidation by much of the U.S. right — especially by people who ranted against demonstrations in favor of racial justice. What we’re getting here is an object lesson in what some people really mean when they talk about “law and order.”
...
I still receive mail from people who believe that much of New York City was reduced to smoking rubble. In fact, the demonstrations were remarkably nonviolent; vandalism happened in a few cases, but it was relatively rare, and the damage was small considering the huge size of the protests.


By contrast, causing economic damage was and is what the Canadian protests are all about — because blocking essential flows of goods, threatening people’s livelihoods, is every bit as destructive as smashing a store window. And unlike, say, a strike aimed at a particular company, this damage fell indiscriminately on anyone who had the misfortune to rely on unobstructed trade.


terp said:

How many were prosecuted?  How many were denied access to their funds?

Why is the standard prosecution? I'd like to think we could agree that police injuring peaceful protestors is a problem regardless of whether there was any prosecution?


Did the BLM protesters have millions of dollars deposited into their accounts? Of course you always have to fall back to blm…always. You right wingers are predictable, that’s why I’m listening to wabc right now to hear what you guys come up with to zing the liberals in maplewood. 


Jaytee said:

Did the BLM protesters have millions of dollars deposited into their accounts? Of course you always have to fall back to blm…always. You right wingers are predictable, that’s why I’m listening to wabc right now to hear what you guys come up with to zing the liberals in maplewood. 

I'm not trying to zing anyone.  I'm trying to navigate the tribal aspects of this.  The issue here isn't necessarily the cause of the protesters.   Thus, people should stop and think about what would happen if these very same measures would apply to quell movements they themselves support.  After all, what comes around goes around. 

And BLM raised almost $100 million in 2020.


PVW said:

terp said:

How many were prosecuted?  How many were denied access to their funds?

Why is the standard prosecution? I'd like to think we could agree that police injuring peaceful protestors is a problem regardless of whether there was any prosecution?

Because, the police are going to clear areas for safety, etc.  This happened in 2020 and it's happening now.  We can argue whether they should or not, but is SOP.

Sp, the question is in what other and more dramatic ways are these movements being repressed.  I see locking accounts as a pretty severe violation of rights and an a real attempt at repression.  In a nutshell, it is the action of a tyrant.

Of course, if protesters are being aggressively prosecuted, this is another form of tyranny.  I'm just saying I don't recall that happening during the 2020 protests.


nohero said:

While the right is not immune from a tribal take on these issues, most people I talk to take issue with tje attempts to ignore the violence and destruction.    


theoretically if a PM is acting unlawfully to repress citizens who are rightfully expressing themselves, there is a remedy:

While the prime minister and the cabinet can invoke the act whenever they think the security of Canada is under threat, the decision must then be approved by Parliament within a week. 
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/15/world/canada-protests-news

ml1 said:

theoretically if a PM is acting unlawfully to repress citizens who are rightfully expressing themselves, there is a remedy:

While the prime minister and the cabinet can invoke the act whenever they think the security of Canada is under threat, the decision must then be approved by Parliament within a week. 
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/15/world/canada-protests-news

Kind of like the rule of law.

Kind of like Congress is supposed to approve of sending our military into combat zones.


maybe I missed something, but has it been common for BLM supporters to claim there was zero violence at the demonstrations?  Was it common for people on "the left" to say that arson, robbery, and vandalism were OK as long as it was part of a BLM demonstration?  Was it common for people to say no one should be arrested or prosecuted for any of those crimes they were associated with a demonstration?


terp said:

While the right is not immune from a tribal take on these issues, most people I talk to take issue with tje attempts to ignore the violence and destruction.    

are you Tucker Carlson?


From the George Floyd protests:

The AP found that more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who've been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more.

And:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/over-300-people-facing-federal-charges-crimes-committed-during-nationwide-demonstrations


terp said:

Because, the police are going to clear areas for safety, etc.  This happened in 2020 and it's happening now.  We can argue whether they should or not, but is SOP.

Sp, the question is in what other and more dramatic ways are these movements being repressed.  I see locking accounts as a pretty severe violation of rights and an a real attempt at repression.  In a nutshell, it is the action of a tyrant.

Of course, if protesters are being aggressively prosecuted, this is another form of tyranny.  I'm just saying I don't recall that happening during the 2020 protests.

As far as I know, there haven't yet been any prosecutions of the Canadian protestors, so it's premature to try and make any comparisons based on prosecutions. Regarding the freezing of accounts, it's still unclear to me exactly what the Canadian law allows, and I don't think any action on that front has actually happened yet, so that also seems premature to try and draw comparisons, but I agree there are some real concerns here, as I already noted earlier.

That leaves the actual behavior of the police toward the protestors as an area we can currently compare. I'm not following the story super closely, but from what I understand, police response has been pretty restrained, certainly more restrained than many US police forces were in response to many BLM demonstrations. So far, it seems that your physical safety is much less likely to be threatened if you're a right-leaning anti-vax protestor shutting down a major international transit link than if you're a left-leaning anti-police-violence protestor on a local road in an American city.


terp said:

nohero said:

While the right is not immune from a tribal take on these issues, most people I talk to take issue with tje attempts to ignore the violence and destruction.    

I provided a detailed response, plus quotes, plus a link to more about the subject.

You respond with one of the graphics that's used over and over. What some chyron said once a couple of years ago isn't relevant to this discussion.


nohero said:

terp said:

nohero said:

While the right is not immune from a tribal take on these issues, most people I talk to take issue with tje attempts to ignore the violence and destruction.    

I provided a detailed response, plus quotes, plus a link to more about the subject.

You respond with one of the graphics that's used over and over. What some chyron said once a couple of years ago isn't relevant to this discussion.

it's exasperating to see the same photo again and again, when we can actually look back at the numbers to draw conclusions about the amount of violence at BLM demonstrations.

BLM and Floyd protests were largely peaceful, data confirms

In CCC data collected from May 2020 to June 2021, 94% of protests involved no participant arrests, 97.9% involved no participant injuries, 98.6% involved no injuries to police, and 96.7% involved no property damage.



RealityForAll said:

BLM/G.Floyd Riot damage - One to two billion dollars: URL:  https://www.axios.com/riots-cost-property-damage-276c9bcc-a455-4067-b06a-66f9db4cea9c.html

I'm not sold on economic damage as being a super useful metric, but if we're going that route, would you mind posting losses caused by the blockades of the border crossings?

RealityForAll said:

BLM/G.Floyd Riot damage - One to two billion dollars: URL:  https://www.axios.com/riots-cost-property-damage-276c9bcc-a455-4067-b06a-66f9db4cea9c.html

Watch it!  It's the same thing as calling Jeffrey Dahmer a murderer.  99% of the days he was on this planet he didn't murder anyone.  So silly to focus on those outlier days where he did.


terp said:

Watch it!  It's the same thing as calling Jeffrey Dahmer a murderer.  99% of the days he was on this planet he didn't murder anyone.  So silly to focus on those outlier days where he did.

Now you understand why people are worried about a disease that doesn't immediately murder 95% of the people it comes across.


terp said:

Watch it!  It's the same thing as calling Jeffrey Dahmer a murderer.  99% of the days he was on this planet he didn't murder anyone.  So silly to focus on those outlier days where he did.

and his favorite ice cream was Ben & Jerry in a tub..

You’re a riot 


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