Post Election Hate Crimes
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
Oh hey, I know this thread fell into the memory hole as a lot of the "hate crimes" ended up being fake, which is disappointing for those hoping to get people all upset. ...
Sometimes threads stop getting attention because they slip down the list, not because the topic isn't still relevant.
Some clown threatened a woman in hijab in NYC the other day. She was an off-duty NYPD officer - so he's a loser. That's only one of many current examples.
They got that guy, thankfully.
What is the Trump angle on that one? I must have missed it.
If I said I was not surprised you missed it, would that start an argument?
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
Oh hey, I know this thread fell into the memory hole as a lot of the "hate crimes" ended up being fake, which is disappointing for those hoping to get people all upset. ...
Sometimes threads stop getting attention because they slip down the list, not because the topic isn't still relevant.
Some clown threatened a woman in hijab in NYC the other day. She was an off-duty NYPD officer - so he's a loser. That's only one of many current examples.
They got that guy, thankfully.
What is the Trump angle on that one? I must have missed it.
If I said I was not surprised you missed it, would that start an argument?
Certainly not with you. Thanks for clarifying, you've said it all. 
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
Oh hey, I know this thread fell into the memory hole as a lot of the "hate crimes" ended up being fake, which is disappointing for those hoping to get people all upset. ...
Sometimes threads stop getting attention because they slip down the list, not because the topic isn't still relevant.
Some clown threatened a woman in hijab in NYC the other day. She was an off-duty NYPD officer - so he's a loser. That's only one of many current examples.
They got that guy, thankfully.
What is the Trump angle on that one? I must have missed it.
If I said I was not surprised you missed it, would that start an argument?
Certainly not with you. Thanks for clarifying, you've said it all.
I read the articles with the facts about the incident, so that's why I am not laughing.
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
nohero said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
Oh hey, I know this thread fell into the memory hole as a lot of the "hate crimes" ended up being fake, which is disappointing for those hoping to get people all upset. ...
Sometimes threads stop getting attention because they slip down the list, not because the topic isn't still relevant.
Some clown threatened a woman in hijab in NYC the other day. She was an off-duty NYPD officer - so he's a loser. That's only one of many current examples.
They got that guy, thankfully.
What is the Trump angle on that one? I must have missed it.
If I said I was not surprised you missed it, would that start an argument?
Certainly not with you. Thanks for clarifying, you've said it all.
I read the articles with the facts about the incident, so that's why I am not laughing.
Yes, the facts are sobering given how many people consider that organization to be an unbiased arbiter. People trust them and it never feels good to find out trust is misplaced. Fake news of the worst sort.
You shouldn't let it bother you too much though. Most people are decent and don't look to do harm. If you recognize that you'll always have a reason to smile. 
Jackson_Fusion said:
tjohn said:
Violence ebbs and flows. I think that time will show in the coming months that more and more hate crimes are being committed by a newly empowered white supremacists fringe.
Question: Do you understand why this election is a nightmare for LGBTQ, Hispanic and Muslim citizens?
When those hate crimes occur and are proven to be just that let's hear about them. Running a purported tally of "incidents", some of them comical (the flyer), all of them unconfirmed (crazy trump supporters running around NYU and SDSU?) encourages people to go nuts. Given that the only documented, out-in- the open violent hate crimes, captured on video in technicolor are NOT from where you think they're going to come from, I'll go with worrying about what's actually happening versus what someone thinks is going to happen. That's part of being in the reality based community.
Trump voters, btw, would not be responsible for what some (to this point postulated) animal does to people for political reasons. They should be jailed and banished from polite society. That is unequivocal. There is no excuse for hate crimes. None. Never.
Would you likewise demand the same punishment for those actually committing hate crimes in the real world on the left?
While we're at it there should be a massive amount of documented incidents that have been prosecuted over the last 8 years, due to all the crazy people on the right rioting during the Obama years. I think the supremacists @ Google made them disappear. Can anyone help?
Translation: A white man who aggressively pulls off a woman's Hijab and yells racial epitaphs is NOT considered to be a hate crime until the police state it is or the culprit confesses that it was.
kibbegirl said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
tjohn said:
Violence ebbs and flows. I think that time will show in the coming months that more and more hate crimes are being committed by a newly empowered white supremacists fringe.
Question: Do you understand why this election is a nightmare for LGBTQ, Hispanic and Muslim citizens?
When those hate crimes occur and are proven to be just that let's hear about them. Running a purported tally of "incidents", some of them comical (the flyer), all of them unconfirmed (crazy trump supporters running around NYU and SDSU?) encourages people to go nuts. Given that the only documented, out-in- the open violent hate crimes, captured on video in technicolor are NOT from where you think they're going to come from, I'll go with worrying about what's actually happening versus what someone thinks is going to happen. That's part of being in the reality based community.
Trump voters, btw, would not be responsible for what some (to this point postulated) animal does to people for political reasons. They should be jailed and banished from polite society. That is unequivocal. There is no excuse for hate crimes. None. Never.
Would you likewise demand the same punishment for those actually committing hate crimes in the real world on the left?
While we're at it there should be a massive amount of documented incidents that have been prosecuted over the last 8 years, due to all the crazy people on the right rioting during the Obama years. I think the supremacists @ Google made them disappear. Can anyone help?
Translation: A white man who aggressively pulls off a woman's Hijab and yells racial epitaphs is NOT considered to be a hate crime until the police state it is or the culprit confesses that it was.
Your translator appears to be set on "confused". Crimes that are committed are crimes regardless of whether they are reported or corroborated. But the first 4 words of the previous sentence are where you should direct your attention.
People say all sorts of things all the time. Police investigate, and sometimes, as in your example, they find that a crime was indeed commited, but not the one originally claimed.
Isn't it a little silly to use as an example a "crime" that wasn't committed? What criteria do you use to ascertain whether something happened or not? Just what someone you've never met says to someone else? Seems an approach fraught with peril- never mind one that is guaranteed to foment a view of the world that is sadder than the one that exists.
In any case- have a great rest of the week folks. The world is not as awful as some would have you believe. May that knowledge bring you peace.
Jackson_Fusion said:
In any case- have a great rest of the week folks. The world is not as awful as some would have you believe. May that knowledge bring you peace.
It's possible to see the world as a beautiful place and people as inherently good while also shining a light on injustice and disturbing trends. One need not walk through life whistling a terrible Bobby McFerrin tune to be happy.
dave23 said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
In any case- have a great rest of the week folks. The world is not as awful as some would have you believe. May that knowledge bring you peace.
It's possible to see the world as a beautiful place and people as inherently good while also shining a light on injustice and disturbing trends. One need not walk through life whistling a terrible Bobby McFerrin tune to be happy.
And now... That song is in my head. I retract it all. The world is filled with terrible, awful people.
For the sin you've committed here you are counted foremost among them.
Jackson_Fusion said:
dave23 said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
In any case- have a great rest of the week folks. The world is not as awful as some would have you believe. May that knowledge bring you peace.
It's possible to see the world as a beautiful place and people as inherently good while also shining a light on injustice and disturbing trends. One need not walk through life whistling a terrible Bobby McFerrin tune to be happy.
And now... That song is in my head. I retract it all. The world is filled with terrible, awful people.
For the sin you've committed here you are counted foremost among them.
Don't worry. It'll be out of your head in just a few days.
It is still relevant. A week or so ago, an acquaintance shared an incident with my partner and I that left me at a loss for words. One of his female friends was walking along in NYC and a few people starting mouthing hateful things at her while holding CHAINS and dragging those chains along the sidewalk behind her.
I just couldn't find any words to let this young man know how much her experience upset me. I don't even know how I would respond if I were put in that young gal's situation. Do you stay quiet and keep walking? Do you stand up for yourself and turn to face them?
What does a person do? The police can't be everywhere at once and I don't expect them to show up for things like this that happen so incredibly fast and at random. I have decided for myself that if I witnessed such a thing, I would stay silent but try to stand next to our behind the person on the receiving end of the hatred and remain walking with that person until they are safe. If even only four people did this, it would create a circle of support around that person. There is power in numbers and I like to think that in NYC, hatred is outnumbered. We just have to find ways for our actions to show it.
CompassRose said:
It is still relevant. A week or so ago, an acquaintance shared an incident with my partner and I that left me at a loss for words. One of his female friends was walking along in NYC and a few people starting mouthing hateful things at her while holding CHAINS and dragging those chains along the sidewalk behind her.
I just couldn't find any words to let this young man know how much her experience upset me. I don't even know how I would respond if I were put in that young gal's situation. Do you stay quiet and keep walking? Do you stand up for yourself and turn to face them?
What does a person do? The police can't be everywhere at once and I don't expect them to show up for things like this that happen so incredibly fast and at random. I have decided for myself that if I witnessed such a thing, I would stay silent but try to stand next to our behind the person on the receiving end of the hatred and remain walking with that person until they are safe. If even only four people did this, it would create a circle of support around that person. There is power in numbers and I like to think that in NYC, hatred is outnumbered. We just have to find ways for our actions to show it.
This incident reminds me of the stories I'd hear when a young girl from teenaged relatives in Boston who were being bused to South Boston for school. It's a sense of doom, fear and anguish. Yes, What does a person do? Keep quiet and keep moving. Any gesture of aggression to protect yourself (at this point from an action or words) will undoubtedly end in violence.
These incidents have always been around but this time, some find that not only can they actively do or say hurtful, racist, threatening things to people but that nothing will happen to them in a form of punishment. If you're never punished for what you do, there's no incentive to stop behaving in that manner. None.
theres a story today about the home of a NY Giant player in New Jersey being vandalized and KKK and swastikas being painted all through his house, along with other racist rantings.
there was a story yesterday about another black families home, in another part of the country being vandalized with N-words and swastikas and KKK painted all over his house along with cement poured into drain pipes and all their appliances destroyed.
these stories are anecdotes, thats true, but we didnt hear these stories 14 months ago and now we are hearing them more and more. The word TRUMP is painted along with these other horrible things.
add these to the "stand your ground" laws that allow for white folk to murder black folk because they "feel" threatened. -- much the same defense cops give for murdering blacks of any age or race.
we arent in a safe place JF, you may be, but the slope is slippery and until times change your safe happy place may be slipping too.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
This is why Jews and other groups are standing up for the safety of Muslims, Blacks, etc, because if it can happen to one group, it can happen to anyone.
My sister's best friend's cousin said her boyfriend saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night.
I hear it's pretty serious.
hoops said:
theres a story today about the home of a NY Giant player in New Jersey being vandalized and KKK and swastikas being painted all through his house, along with other racist rantings.
there was a story yesterday about another black families home, in another part of the country being vandalized with N-words and swastikas and KKK painted all over his house along with cement poured into drain pipes and all their appliances destroyed.
these stories are anecdotes, thats true, but we didnt hear these stories 14 months ago and now we are hearing them more and more. The word TRUMP is painted along with these other horrible things.
add these to the "stand your ground" laws that allow for white folk to murder black folk because they "feel" threatened. -- much the same defense cops give for murdering blacks of any age or race.
we arent in a safe place JF, you may be, but the slope is slippery and until times change your safe happy place may be slipping too.
We didn't hear about so many faked crimes before Trump's election.
In this nation of 320 million, it should be easy to provide 20 examples over the last 5 years where white people murdered black people because of stand your ground laws and got away with it. Can you do so? That would be 4 a year.
You do not have to do a homework assignment because I told you to, but if you're going to suggest that white people are running around killing black people and using self defense laws to get away with literal murder, not justifiable homicide, across the country I imagine you did so with total confidence in your evidence, so it should be very little effort to produce it here.
It is a claim I am sure you would not make lightly, as inflammatory as it is.
People do ****** things to each other every day. There are racist ******** of all stripes in the world. To blame Trump for their behavior, or to blame his supporters for every idiotic piece of graffiti (many of which have turned out to have been done by trump haters- Google it swearsies!) means you have to blame Hillary for every bad thing done to the various "deplorables", who would by her math be about 25% of the country's population.
I mean, they're white supremacists according to her, so she must be to blame if someone attacks them, right? Why not?
It's just conjecture, right Jackson Fusion? But even if you're right, you're defending people who don't deserve it. Let's put our energy into stopping the hate crimes, not claiming that they're not as bad as they sound or that they're not increasing. I think the only acceptable rate of hate crimes is zero.
Jackson_Fusion said:
...
I mean, they're white supremacists according to her, so she must be to blame if someone attacks them, right? Why not?
I think ignoring anecdotal evidence as you are doing but then asking for a scientific data analysis of the phenomenon is valid, however its not something a person minus some heavy computing equipment and data sources can prove.
Here is a good website showing some damning statistics. These are not to be conflated with the coming of Trump, this is business as usual for police in the US
http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
There are numerous websites that can show trends of this violence and there are organizations that track these types of hate crimes like the SPLC.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/hate-incidents
So there are certainly places you can get some information to verify your thoughts. I suppose that if you arent a potential target (yet) of such abusive and dangerous behaviors that you could easily go off and decide that we live in the garden of eden.
I prefer to live in the real world and work to it betterment by pointing out our flaws and so that they can be addressed and improved upon.
Im sorry that the republican party stands for anti-science, anti-POC, anti-working class, anti-choice, and is only pro whatever is on the Kochs and uber wealthy wishlists. I know its hard to defend the indefensible, so its rugged individualism for all!
Jackson_Fusion said:
You do not have to do a homework assignment because I told you to, but if you're going to suggest that white people are running around killing black people and using self defense laws to get away with literal murder, not justifiable homicide, across the country I imagine you did so with total confidence in your evidence, so it should be very little effort to produce it here.
Here's the thing, what would have been a chargeable homicide in the past is now reclassified as justifiable homicide under the stand your ground laws.
stand your ground study done in Florida shows 24% increase in homicides.
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2582988
study shows stand your ground laws have racial bias
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/
Tom_Reingold said:
It's just conjecture, right Jackson Fusion? But even if you're right, you're defending people who don't deserve it. Let's put our energy into stopping the hate crimes, not claiming that they're not as bad as they sound or that they're not increasing. I think the only acceptable rate of hate crimes is zero.
Who am I defending, Tom, and what am I defending them from? Be specific.
hoops said:
Jackson_Fusion said:
...
I mean, they're white supremacists according to her, so she must be to blame if someone attacks them, right? Why not?
I think ignoring anecdotal evidence as you are doing but then asking for a scientific data analysis of the phenomenon is valid, however its not something a person minus some heavy computing equipment and data sources can prove.
Here is a good website showing some damning statistics. These are not to be conflated with the coming of Trump, this is business as usual for police in the US
http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
There are numerous websites that can show trends of this violence and there are organizations that track these types of hate crimes like the SPLC.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/11/18/update-incidents-hateful-harassment-election-day-now-number-701
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/hate-incidents
So there are certainly places you can get some information to verify your thoughts. I suppose that if you arent a potential target (yet) of such abusive and dangerous behaviors that you could easily go off and decide that we live in the garden of eden.
I prefer to live in the real world and work to it betterment by pointing out our flaws and so that they can be addressed and improved upon.
Im sorry that the republican party stands for anti-science, anti-POC, anti-working class, anti-choice, and is only pro whatever is on the Kochs and uber wealthy wishlists. I know its hard to defend the indefensible, so its rugged individualism for all!
Still sticking with the SPLC after their little oopsie earlier in the week, covered in this thread? They're a political group, nothing more. Ask the FRC about their methods.
Wait... You got me. We went from a discussion on whether Trump's election had set off a wave of violence and intimidation from Trump voters and ended up with police shootings, science denial, rich people and the Koch brothers- standard boogie men.
hoops said:
stand your ground study done in Florida shows 24% increase in homicides.
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2582988
study shows stand your ground laws have racial bias
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/
I will comment on this one- the study results in terms of the increase in justifiable homicides are indeed a direct result of stand your ground laws. In fact that result was an intent of the law.
Stand your ground as a legal extension of the castle doctrine was put forth to keep prosecutors from charging people who were justified in killing someone from being ruined by prosecutors or lawsuits from angry family members. They would be charged with a crime, and years and thousands of dollars later would be found not guilty... Or worse, faced with potential jail time, would take a plea bargain. And they were guaranteed to be sued.
The castle doctrine (which we have in NJ believe it or not) was put forth to replace old laws (which NJ had) that basically said if it was possible for you to do so you had to find a way to escape your house when confronted by someone who had broken in. This was known as a "duty to retreat".
"Possible" leads to some crazy stuff- you could have jumped out a window! You could have crawled onto a roof! You didn't have to shoot him! The Castle Doctrine took that out of the hands of creative prosecutors and said basically that if someone comes in your house and it is not possible for you to retreat in COMPLETE SAFETY (for example, he came in the back door, didn't see you and you were out the front door, in the car backing out of the driveway and no other residents were in the house you would have a hard time explaining going back in and shooting the guy unless I guess he attacked you) you can do what a reasonable person would do to protect yourself and your people.
That was a higher standard to bring charges. And homicides have to be characterized as something, so all that was left was "justifiable homicide", or the analog title in other jurisdictions.
WAY OFF TOPIC. But something for you, since you spent some time finding something for me- which I appreciate sincerely.
Edit to add an important point- what you do still has to be REASONABLE. So as "stand your ground" extends you right to protect yourself without attempted to escape regardless of safety in doing so, you cannot shoot someone for looking at you funny. A reasonable man standard would apply both in leveling charges by the prosecutor, those charges being accepted by the judge, and ultimately by the reasonable men and women sitting in the jury box.
But if the case is "he hit me with a pipe so I shot him", case closed- the law precludes charging you with a crime, assuming you had a legal right to be where you were and DID NOT initiate violence ("I punched him but then he started kicking my *** so I shot him" would not be protected under the law.)
I know you're not defending hate crimes, but isn't saying that they are indefensible more useful than saying the reports are exaggerated? I think so, at least if we agree that we should be working to reduce (and then ultimately eliminate) them.
Tom_Reingold said:
I know you're not defending hate crimes, but isn't saying that they are indefensible more useful than saying the reports are exaggerated? I think so, at least if we agree that we should be working to reduce (and then ultimately eliminate) them.
I think the truth is more important, no matter what it is. Claiming that non existent crimes are indefensible makes no sense.
Real crimes of all stripes are indeed indefensible. That goes without saying but I suppose must be said...?
I will add that ginning up fake hate crimes is a hate crime itself- they fit the definition of attempting to intimidate or frighten a group. As such they too should be eliminated and certainly recognized when they occur to limit their damage. Given your statement of absolutism against hate crimes, which I applaud, surely you must agree.
One is a big enemy. The other doesn't seem like much of a threat. I think the worst thing likely to be happening is increased reporting of the type of crime that until now went unreported to a degree, similar to the cop-on-black violence. I see no downside to increased awareness of these crimes. Fake stories are probably very few compared with the real ones.
And no, not all truths are of equal value. If I learn my mother in law has been coloring her hair and claiming she hasn't, it doesn't really matter, even though she would be lying. (This is hypothetical.) Search for truth isn't always worthy.
Tom_Reingold said:
One is a big enemy. The other doesn't seem like much of a threat. I think the worst thing likely to be happening is increased reporting of the type of crime that until now went unreported to a degree, similar to the cop-on-black violence. I see no downside to increased awareness of these crimes. Fake stories are probably very few compared with the real ones.
And no, not all truths are of equal value. If I learn my mother in law has been coloring her hair and claiming she hasn't, it doesn't really matter, even though she would be lying. (This is hypothetical.) Search for truth isn't always worthy.
Who said anything about all truth being of equal value? What? Mother in law? What?
"Doesn't seem like much of a threat."? You just came out strong-form against all hate crimes- your words "I think the only acceptable rate of hate crimes is zero" - "Let's put our energy into stopping hate crimes, not claiming that they're not as bad as they sound or that they're not increasing".
40 minutes later, they "don't seem like much of a threat" "fake stories are probably very few"
Hate crimes, as defined, get penalty enhancements as they cause increases in fear and intimidation in targeted groups.
When someone falsely claims they were attacked with racial slurs, is the intimidation and fear felt by others somehow different?
Does it all come down to whether someone's intentions are "good".... However we subjectively define "good", then? Tell me.
Certainly the refutation is not getting nearly the attention in the media the original story did. Why mess with a good story line after all.
Not American but another example of a leftist meme about hate debunked
The same could be said about Mr.Trump. He has made hateful statements and tweeted some not so true things about many people, yet their responses to him seem to elicit crickets in the media.
Gilgul said:
Certainly the refutation is not getting nearly the attention in the media the original story did. Why mess with a good story line after all.
CompassRose said:
The same could be said about Mr.Trump. He has made hateful statements and tweeted some not so true things about many people, yet their responses to him seem to elicit crickets in the media.
Gilgul said:
Certainly the refutation is not getting nearly the attention in the media the original story did. Why mess with a good story line after all.
Should be easy to list a bunch. What are you referring to specifically?
Actually I think there might be more than I thought. Here is a short list leaving off major players like Hillary Clinton, Scott Walker, Angela Merkel - those who were able to respond in major media.
Katy Tur, Nicole Wallace, George Will, Juan Williams, Jeff Zeleny, Jeff Zucker, Mort Zuckerman, Paul Begala, Sam Liccardo, Cheri Jacobus, Frank Lutz, Errol Lewis...and more.
Jackson_Fusion said:
CompassRose said:
The same could be said about Mr.Trump. He has made hateful statements and tweeted some not so true things about many people, yet their responses to him seem to elicit crickets in the media.
Gilgul said:
Certainly the refutation is not getting nearly the attention in the media the original story did. Why mess with a good story line after all.
Should be easy to list a bunch. What are you referring to specifically?
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They got that guy, thankfully.
What is the Trump angle on that one? I must have missed it.