The George Floyd effect. Monuments down. MS flag gone. Worldwide protests. Police more violent than protestors.
terp said:
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
Turning this into an NRA commercial? Never miss an opportunity to set a new low, do you? What are you proposing we do next? Shoot up some schools?
PVW said:
terp said:
Funny too how the complaints about the mass gatherings stopped all of a sudden.
I suppose you could have made the same remark about last week's protestors in Hong Kong, though I very much doubt they are unaware of the danger of COVID-19. Nor does it seem likely that the protestors in Minneapolis, whose communities have borne a disproportionate impact from the virus, are unaware of the danger. Both groups have to weigh the risks in deciding whether to make a stand -- against the end of "one country, two systems" in the one case, and it's stubborn persistence in the other.
Because really, that's what this is about -- a protest against an unfair two-tier society, which the police have not created but are merely enforcing. If by bringing up Balko's book you were trying to make some kind of argument about how federal funding and programs somehow means the Minnesota police aren't really a local force, you can put your kilt away.
Chauvin didn't use any fancy federally-provided equipment to kill Floyd. And while the Minneapolis police have acted in direct defiance of the local leaders they are theoretically answerable to, it's not because they are actually agents of an oppressive national government.
This isn't really about the police in the end, but about this county's racial hierarchy. Sometimes it's agents of the national government enforcing it, but usually it's state or local officials. It isn't even always the police -- individuals take it upon themselves, citing reasons from listening to the wrong music to jogging in the wrong neighborhood to looking at the wrong woman.
This goes way back, and it is tyranny certain as any feared by any Gadsden flag waver, but it's sources aren't an oppressive central state.
By all means, we should aim for a demilitarization of the military. That's a good and worthy goal. And we should follow that up with a demilitarization of our populace too. Contra John Lott, more guns mean more death.
But behind all that -- the reason the cops are so heavily armed, and the reason white men with long guns feel entitled to threaten violence in defense of their "rights," is the same reason being an "essential worker" means you're probably making minimum wage and hoping to god the man proudly refusing to wear a mask while demanding service at your place of employment isn't contagious.
I do think race is an issue. Is the criminal justice system biased against black people from top to bottom? It sure is.
But it is possible for there to be more than one issue. The police are out of control in general. They kill a lot of people regardless of race and often in cold blood. And the tendency is that they don't get punished. And I should be clear that I do no think all police are bad or anything. They are put in a difficult position, but they often act with impunity. There was actually a similar incident earlier this year in Texas.
And I agree that private citizens do some really horrible things. And some are motivated by race. But the vast majority of murders are intra-racial. That isn't to say that racially motivated crime isn't an issue, but it is what is focused on by the press.
Regarding the militarization of the police. There are elements including equipment, techniques and mindset. These police were not protecting and serving. They were fighting enemies. If you follow any Palestinian journalists online there is chatter that the IDF uses this same technique as a matter of course on Palestinians.
And on the trend of militarization: Are you saying that the growing militarization of the police is a reflection of the growing racism in this country?
terp said:
ml1 said:
terp said:
The important thing to remember is that these are the only people who should be allowed to have guns.
what percentage of the population of the US do you believe think only the police should be allowed to have guns?
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
By pretty popular you must mean non-existent.
basil said:
terp said:
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
Turning this into an NRA commercial? Never miss an opportunity to set a new low, do you? What are you proposing we do next? Shoot up some schools?
I'm trying to offer a different perspective. I know that is something that you find no value in.
drummerboy said:
terp said:
ml1 said:
terp said:
The important thing to remember is that these are the only people who should be allowed to have guns.
what percentage of the population of the US do you believe think only the police should be allowed to have guns?
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
By pretty popular you must mean non-existent.
When people here often try to say that the 2nd amendment is only for militias what argument are they trying to make. If you do a search on this board for the word militia you see a lot of people making this argument. It was even made in this very thread. What do you think they are arguing for?
terp said:
basil said:
terp said:
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
Turning this into an NRA commercial? Never miss an opportunity to set a new low, do you? What are you proposing we do next? Shoot up some schools?
I'm trying to offer a different perspective. I know that is something that you find no value in.
It's not clear what your perspective is in this case.
terp said:
I'm trying to offer a different perspective. I know that is something that you find no value in.
My perspective is that Black Lives Matter. Do you concur?
Looking at the brutality of these police across the country and knowing the history of that brutality I feel like the only solution is to fire everyone and start over with real oversight with a force that is demilitarized
terp said:
If you do a search on this board for the word militia you see a lot of people making this argument.
No, you don’t. You see them making arguments for regulating civilian gun ownership, not banning it.
What was striking about basil’s militia comment earlier in this thread was its peculiarity.
terp said:
I don't know. It strikes me as a pretty popular sentiment on this board.
quotes?
hoops said:
Looking at the brutality of these police across the country and knowing the history of that brutality I feel like the only solution is to fire everyone and start over with real oversight with a force that is demilitarized
police are rampaging.
Police erupt in violence nationwide
We watched people in Minneapolis on Friday kneeling in the street with their hands up. Police tear gassed these peaceful protesters. Why? It was past curfew. Seems like the curfews serve as nothing more than an excuse for cops to incite violence.
terp said:
I agree. I think many of the rioters are out of control as well. This is pretty unpleasant to watch.
terp said:
When people here often try to say that the 2nd amendment is only for militias what argument are they trying to make. If you do a search on this board for the word militia you see a lot of people making this argument. It was even made in this very thread. What do you think they are arguing for?
No. You do a search on this board for the word militia and show us a lot of people making this argument.
Douche.
drummerboy said:
It's not clear what your perspective is in this case.
It's rarely more than Not.
terp said:
I agree. I think many of the rioters are out of control as well. This is pretty unpleasant to watch.
I don't know what was removed but I agree with your statement that many of the rioters are out of control as well. The scenes in Atlanta at the CNN building and the scene outside the White House were dangerous.
I don't accept the right of anyone to throw rocks at cops. It's perverse to protest for an end to prejudice and injustice and then do the same. Do we demand that all cops pay with their lives or their jobs for what some cops did?
Morganna said:
terp said:
I agree. I think many of the rioters are out of control as well. This is pretty unpleasant to watch.
I don't know what was removed but I agree with your statement that many of the rioters are out of control as well. The scenes in Atlanta at the CNN building and the scene outside the White House were dangerous.
I don't accept the right of anyone to throw rocks at cops. It's perverse to protest for an end to prejudice and injustice and then do the same. Do we demand that all cops pay with their lives or their jobs for what some cops did?
I don’t accept the right of agents of the state to kill unarmed American citizens with impunity. I don’t accept the the idea that agents of the state exist above the law that they are sworn to uphold and have no accountability for their actions. I don’t accept the idea that any building is worth more than the life of one human. I don’t accept the idea that privilege allows one to “start” history where it’s convenient- as in starting history with the throwing of rocks or setting of fires instead of with the stealing of a precious life and the destruction of a family.
One day Black Americans won’t be targeted by law enforcement because of the color of their skin and at that precise moment ALL cops will cease being responsible for the actions of a few.
flimbro said:
I don’t accept the right of agents of the state to kill unarmed Americans citizens with impunity. I don’t accept the the idea that agents of the state exist above the law that they are sworn to uphold and have no accountability for their actions. I don’t accept the idea that any building is worth more than the life of one human. I don’t accept the idea that privilege allows one to “start” history where it’s convenient- as in starting history with the throwing of rocks or setting of fires instead of with the stealing of a precious life and the destruction of a family.
One day Black Americans won’t be targeted by law enforcement because of the color of their skin and at that precise moment ALL cops will cease being responsible for the actions of a few.
^this
Not to mention that the cops in a lot of places are the ones inciting the violence among the protests:
A nationwide police riot: Is our outrage about "violence" pointed at the real perpetrators?
Because something has been revealed here, which even the major voices in mainstream media cannot avoid. It isn't something about the possibly excessive, possibly regrettable protests or about their ambiguous racial dynamic, issues that until Saturday seemed to dominate the chattering-class social media discourse. It's about America's police, which increasingly resemble a lawless, authoritarian third force, largely unconstrained by political leaders, heedless of their own supposed rules and internally compromised by far-right or white supremacist ideology.
there is some scary stuff on our screens this week, and the truly terrifying stuff isn't being done by the protesters. It's being done by the cops.
flimbro said:
I don’t accept the right of agents of the state to kill unarmed Americans citizens with impunity. I don’t accept the the idea that agents of the state exist above the law that they are sworn to uphold and have no accountability for their actions. I don’t accept the idea that any building is worth more than the life of one human. I don’t accept the idea that privilege allows one to “start” history where it’s convenient- as in starting history with the throwing of rocks or setting of fires instead of with the stealing of a precious life and the destruction of a family.
One day Black Americans won’t be targeted by law enforcement because of the color of their skin and at that precise moment ALL cops will cease being responsible for the actions of a few.
The rocks thrown at the cornered cops at the CNN building could have killed one of them. Are you suggesting that it is justified? Their lives are just not precious enough and their families don't qualify?
Morganna said:
flimbro said:
I don’t accept the right of agents of the state to kill unarmed Americans citizens with impunity. I don’t accept the the idea that agents of the state exist above the law that they are sworn to uphold and have no accountability for their actions. I don’t accept the idea that any building is worth more than the life of one human. I don’t accept the idea that privilege allows one to “start” history where it’s convenient- as in starting history with the throwing of rocks or setting of fires instead of with the stealing of a precious life and the destruction of a family.
One day Black Americans won’t be targeted by law enforcement because of the color of their skin and at that precise moment ALL cops will cease being responsible for the actions of a few.
The rocks thrown at the cornered cops at the CNN building could have killed one of them. Are you suggesting that it is justified? Their lives are just not precious enough and their families don't qualify?
I’m suggesting that it’s cause and effect. You don’t want to get wet- don’t get in the pool. You don’t want to get sunburned stay out of the sun. You don’t want to get rocks chucked at your head STOP HUNTING AND KILLING BLACK PEOPLE.
Cops are no more precious than any of the civilians murdered by law enforcement. If you want sympathy and compassion then you model sympathy and compassion. If you want to be treated with respect than you offer that same respect. On the other hand if you want violence and chaos then you continue to push people to the point where they realize that to you, their lives are cheap and meaningless and always at risk. If you create and look to maintain an inhumane society you have to expect to live in that inhumane society with everybody else.
If you want peace and justice then be about peace and justice ALL of the time for everybody.
Police march and kneel in solidarity in a few cities. Is it possible this is a start? Is it possible for the police to shift to protecting those they are supposed to serve over protecting their own?
flimbro said:
I’m suggesting that it’s cause and effect. You don’t want to get wet- don’t get in the pool. You don’t want to get sunburned stay out of the sun. You don’t want to get rocks chucked at your head STOP HUNTING AND KILLING BLACK PEOPLE.
Cops are no more precious than any of the civilians murdered by law enforcement. If you want sympathy and compassion then you model sympathy and compassion. If you want to be treated with respect than you offer that same respect. On the other hand if you want violence and chaos then you continue to push people to the point where they realize that to you, their lives are cheap and meaningless and always at risk. If you create and look to maintain an inhumane society you have to expect to live in that inhumane society with everybody else.
If you want peace and justice then be about peace and justice ALL of the time for everybody.
I never said cops were more precious I borrowed your phrase of a building not being as important as a precious life. Not sure what you were referring to. CNN was the location. But no matter how many messages you put in all caps, not all cops are killing and hunting black people. We don't want to stereotype anybody do we?
What concerns me is that it sounds like the foundation for just about any war.
I assure you I want peace and justice. I'd support any actions against those cops who murdered George Floyd. First degree, works for me. Death penalty, I'm not squeamish, but I don't think every cop in every state should be held accountable. I don't want to accept "violence begets violence". It doesn't have to. We as a society seem to need law enforcement so do we believe every cop in SOMA should be attacked because they wear the uniform?
As for be about peace, you reminded me of Paul Surovell so I just sent him a friend request on FB. I'd like to get his take.
Peace.
Morganna said:
flimbro said:
I’m suggesting that it’s cause and effect. You don’t want to get wet- don’t get in the pool. You don’t want to get sunburned stay out of the sun. You don’t want to get rocks chucked at your head STOP HUNTING AND KILLING BLACK PEOPLE.
Cops are no more precious than any of the civilians murdered by law enforcement. If you want sympathy and compassion then you model sympathy and compassion. If you want to be treated with respect than you offer that same respect. On the other hand if you want violence and chaos then you continue to push people to the point where they realize that to you, their lives are cheap and meaningless and always at risk. If you create and look to maintain an inhumane society you have to expect to live in that inhumane society with everybody else.
If you want peace and justice then be about peace and justice ALL of the time for everybody.I never said cops were more precious I borrowed your phrase of a building not being as important as a precious life. Not sure what you were referring to. CNN was the location. But no matter how many messages you put in all caps, not all cops are killing and hunting black people. We don't want to stereotype anybody do we?
What concerns me is that it sounds like the foundation for just about any war.
I assure you I want peace and justice. I'd support any actions against those cops who murdered George Floyd. First degree, works for me. Death penalty, I'm not squeamish, but I don't think every cop in every state should be held accountable. I don't want to accept "violence begets violence". It doesn't have to. We as a society seem to need law enforcement so do we believe every cop in SOMA should be attacked because they wear the uniform?
As for be about peace, you reminded me of Paul Surovell so I just sent him a friend request on FB. I'd like to get his take.
Peace.
Not all cops are hunting and killing Black people AND NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE GUILTY. (Just because I know you dig caps)
So, like I said, the very same day law enforcement makes the decision to enforce the law equitably and justly and to resist the urge to see Black skin as a marker of criminality- Black folks will take the time to acknowledge that all cops do not represent a deadly organization empowered by the state with the right to take our lives at any moment. Until that day comes around all you got is happy talk about distinctions that don’t hold water in the real world.
Here’s a great story from Ali re ‘good’ ones mixed in with the bad (listen to the part about snakes):
https://www.joe.co.uk/life/muhammad-ali-had-the-perfect-reply-to-the-not-all-white-people-are-racist-argument-169358
Re your question about cops in SOMA- Should every Black person be on guard because they have Black skin? My color is me and cannot be changed. Being a cop is a job- a choice of vocation and the requirements and regulations are adjustable at any given time.
The institution doesn’t work. It needs an overhaul or abolishment. You cannot free an armed organization to wreak havoc in a community and not expect chaos.
Morganna said:
The rocks thrown at the cornered cops at the CNN building could have killed one of them. Are you suggesting that it is justified? Their lives are just not precious enough and their families don't qualify?
the cops were in armor, and holding shields. They weren't in danger of being killed.
sprout said:
Police march and kneel in solidarity in a few cities. Is it possible this is a start? Is it possible for the police to shift to protecting those they are supposed to serve over protecting their own?
For the individual cops? Sure I guess. For the institution- no, not at all. The problem is institutional racism and the methodology employed to control non-white and poor populations.
Kneeling cops are wonderful but unless they take that same energy back to the precinct and point fingers at racists and murderers what good is it?
Cleveland Ohio had a PAL organization for kids and the cops there still killed Tamir Rice. In March the entire country was realizing the heroism displayed by healthcare professionals. That didn’t stop cops from shooting former EMT and emergency room tech Breonna Taylor eight times on March 13th.
Cops will shift to protect and serve when mayors and governors no longer find it necessary to control and corral Black, brown and poor white communities. They’ll stop killing Black and brown Americans when they lose funding and have their pensions revoked.
Is there any instance of a police union head ever coming out in support of prosecuting an officer in cases like Floyd's?
Individual cops may have a conscience about police misdeeds, but the fact remains that in almost every case, the police, as an instituion, never come down on one of their members. I understand that unions are there to protect their members, but the police union is not the meat packers union. When a police union member acts out, innocent people die. Police union leaders need to make a moral choice, and they almost always fail. (I say "almost" to protect myself from charges of over-generalization, but really, it's all the time.)
flimbro said:
They’ll stop killing Black and brown Americans when they lose funding and have their pensions revoked.
I am familiar with some work towards incremental implementation and oversight changes to improve systems. But knowing there are many ways capitalism incentivizes institutional racism, this has given me more food for thought.
Another financial approach suggestion (from the comments in WSJ):
john watkins - subscriber
We need some new ideas.
How about state and courts shifting responsibility for liability insurance from the city to the individual policeman with each cop receiving an additional reasonable amount of pay to cover their individual liability insurance premium.
Many cities are getting walloped by huge verdicts for police misconduct. Shifting the burden of purchasing liability insurance to the individual cop would weed out the bad police since they would be charged a higher premium due to the greater likelihood of creating a "George Floyd" type of situation.
It's hard to fire bad cops. The police officer charged with the murder had a number of complaints on his record. Cities should not be forced to insure risks like that. An insurance company assessing that bad cop's individual liability risk, would probably have charged him a much higher premium to the point he couldn't afford to work as a police officer. This idea....and others....may help to solve the problem.
That’s all interesting and worth investigating but it seems to add an extra layer of bureaucracy. Why not just fire officers who have an abundance of complaints and strip them of their pension?
In addition, withhold funding for Police departments that don’t seem to be able to get a handle on their membership. What’s at stake is the safety of the citizens they’re paid to protect.
None of this will be easy since PDs are instruments of control for the masses and in many communities oppression- but real reform has to start somewhere. We really have to examine the power and resources given to PDs across the country. How many stories have we seen about urban PDs lacking PPE like our hospitals?
All of this destruction could have been avoided by simply arresting one cop. What we’ll be watching tonight is the result of many forces/ideologies colliding but the root problem for protestors is the fact that three cops- two of whom also held George Floyd down as he died- have yet to be detained.
I agree. I think many of the rioters are out of control as well. This is pretty unpleasant to watch.