It continues (NJT)

Just got off the phone with my commuter check company. They said they're very aware of the NJ Transit issue and all fares will be adjusted to the discount rate offered.

Not all of us use commuter checks. Some use a Commuter credit card and that has recurring contributions and mine needs a lag time of over 2 months to make any changes.

joan_crystal said:

Why wouldn't it be feasible to have developed a plan in which at least some Midtown Direct trains terminated at Secaucus where riders could then transfer for train service to/from NYP?  I seems to me that this would cause far less disruption than sending everyone to Hoboken.

I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that they do not have the ability to turn trains around at Secaucus.

Part of the issue here that is not being communicated clearly is that we are the only line that currently runs into Penn that can be diverted into Hoboken.

That is important, and I do not think everyone really gets it.

Northeast Corridor, Trenton, Long Branch, and Raritan Valley trains CANNOT be diverted to Hoboken.  They also cannot terminate at Newark Penn, which is a through station not a terminal like Hoboken and Penn.  They HAVE to continue on to New York.  Main Line, Bergen, and Pascack Vally trains already go only to Hoboken.

Without getting all train geek on you, the bottom line is they can revert our trains to the original DL&W routing, because they left that line in place when they created the connection in 1995.  But our line runs at a different voltage than the old Pennsylvania and Jersey Central lines, so their engines cannot run on our line.  Also there is no connection for eastbound trains on the Northeast Corridor to get onto the Morris and Essex, only for eastbound M&E trains to get up onto the Northeast Corridor.  They just can't get here from there.

So we can make all the noise we want, have all the meetings they want, but if they want to get trains out of Penn, the only trains they can get out of Penn and still run are ours and some LIRR trains they can route into Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn (which I believe they are doing, too).

sac said:

joan_crystal said:

Why wouldn't it be feasible to have developed a plan in which at least some Midtown Direct trains terminated at Secaucus where riders could then transfer for train service to/from NYP?  I seems to me that this would cause far less disruption than sending everyone to Hoboken.

I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that they do not have the ability to turn trains around at Secaucus.

Yes, this is correct.  Secaucus is a through station, too.

doesn't the Raritan Valley Line terminate at Newark Penn?  Doesn't Montclair-Boonton have the capacity to go to Hoboken?

max_weisenfeld said:

sac said:

joan_crystal said:

Why wouldn't it be feasible to have developed a plan in which at least some Midtown Direct trains terminated at Secaucus where riders could then transfer for train service to/from NYP?  I seems to me that this would cause far less disruption than sending everyone to Hoboken.

I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that they do not have the ability to turn trains around at Secaucus.

Yes, this is correct.  Secaucus is a through station, too.

Thanks for the explanation.  I know Secaucus does not have the capability to park trains at that station.  Don't they have the capability to reverse the direction of trains?  They do this all the time at Hoboken.  If there was capacity to dedicate a track/platform location to a shuttle train between Secaucus and NYP, wouldn't this be a way of maximizing usable track at NYP?

It seems the main problem is that the NJT rail system doesn't have the flexibility needed to respond effectively to problems such as this.

It is a very old system, assembled from other old systems.  It was never designed for flexibility.

max_weisenfeld said:

sac said:

joan_crystal said:

Why wouldn't it be feasible to have developed a plan in which at least some Midtown Direct trains terminated at Secaucus where riders could then transfer for train service to/from NYP?  I seems to me that this would cause far less disruption than sending everyone to Hoboken.

I don't know for sure, but I think I read somewhere that they do not have the ability to turn trains around at Secaucus.

Yes, this is correct.  Secaucus is a through station, too.

Your explanation in the other post was excellent Max. I had no idea about the voltage differences. Thank you! You really should sit with Sheena and Deluca prior to their meeting.

As to terminating in Secaucus - seems like there are crossovers before and after Secaucus station, so you "could" turn a train around. Is the issue that this would take too much time and be counterproductive because it would gum up the main line? Or am I reading the crossover situation on Google maps wrong?

Max, I thought I read that the Montclair-Boonton line would still be running into Penn. If that's the case, what would stop those from Maplewood from getting off at Newark Broad and switching to those trainsa for the eastbound trip and reverse it for the westbound trip? (I, who go into Hoboken, often do the opposite: if I miss a Hoboken train I take a Midtown direct that stops at Newark Broad and grab a Montclair train terminating in Hoboken.)

http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/r...

According to the above map, Montclair - Boonton trains also have the option of terminating at NYP or Hoboken.  Not sure why they are exempt from having all their trains routed to Hoboken when ours are not.  I'm not sure what NJT can do to prevent passengers switching at Newark Broad Street for NYP trains unless these trains are already filled to capacity or they bipass Newark Broad Street altogether.

Most Raritan Vally trains do turn at Newark Penn, but there is not enough room to turn more trains at Newark.  Since Raritan trains during rush hour already terminate at Newark, there is nothing to gain from that line.

I am hearing conflicting reports on MoBo trains. If they are going into Penn, and M&E passengers want to stand on the platform at Broad Street only to find there is no room to jam onto a much shorter train to go into NY Penn, I doubt NJT can stop them.  But there are only six Montclair trains during rush hour that go into NY Penn, and zero Boonton trains.  There are over 20 Morris and Essex trains, and the M&E trains are much larger.  Capacity would be a big hurtle.  I do not think Montclair stations can accomodate much bigger trains, nor do I think NJ Transit owns the rolling stock to put longer trains on that line.

Theoretically, you could turn a train at Secaucus, but the line is not designed to do that so you could not do it often.  There is no room to hold trains so you would have to have track capacity to send the train back right away.  There are safety considerations to crossing lines, especially when they are operating at capacity as they do during rush hour, so you would have to stop and hold other trains while turning, which would likely cause cascading delays up and down the line.

As for talking to our elected leaders, I think they are doing their jobs.  NJ Transit can explain the details to them, if NJT doesn't blow them off.  Most importantly, their constituents are upset, and NJT needs to know that even if the decision is the right one, and I think it is (I especially admire NJT proactivly lowering ticket prices; not the level of customer care one normally expects from NJT) NJT needs to do a better job explaining why the decision was made.

max_weisenfeld said:

Most Raritan Vally trains do turn at Newark Penn, but there is not enough room to turn more trains at Newark.  Since Raritan trains during rush hour already terminate at Newark, there is nothing to gain from that line.

I am hearing conflicting reports on MoBo trains. If they are going into Penn, and M&E passengers want to stand on the platform at Broad Street only to find there is no room to jam onto a much shorter train to go into NY Penn, I doubt NJT can stop them.  But there are only six Montclair trains during rush hour that go into NY Penn, and zero Boonton trains.  There are over 20 Morris and Essex trains, and the M&E trains are much larger.  Capacity would be a big hurtle.  I do not think Montclair stations can accomodate much bigger trains, nor do I think NJ Transit owns the rolling stock to put longer trains on that line.


Theoretically, you could turn a train at Secaucus, but the line is not designed to do that so you could not do it often.  There is no room to hold trains so you would have to have track capacity to send the train back right away.  There are safety considerations to crossing lines, especially when they are operating at capacity as they do during rush hour, so you would have to stop and hold other trains while turning, which would likely cause cascading delays up and down the line.

All of that sounds like at least as much trouble, if not moreso, than going to Hoboken and then taking the PATH.  Whatever happens, it is going to be messy and inconvenient, but I'm not sure we really have any other choice.  I have some hope that in an organized diversion to Hoboken (like this) as opposed to the emergency ones, things will work more smoothly in Hoboken, as they did pre-MTD.  

That being said, NJT has NOT done a good job of communicating so far.  And blowing off our elected officials makes that worse.  I do hope that @sheena_collum and @vicdeluca have or receive all of the facts and are able to advocate for our communities and our line in appropriate and feasible ways.

Also, I'm not sure where this falls, but my spouse (who works a few blocks southeast of Penn Station) tells me that when they are cross-honoring on PATH, he typically has to walk an extra block or two out of his way, sometimes missing a train as a result, to get to the entrance (north of 32nd St) where it is possible to present your NJT ticket to do this.   In order to use the closer entrance (near 30th/31st streets - i.e. the front of the PATH train), he has to pay the PATH fare. It would be very helpful if the cross-honoring was possible at both entrances.

Technically other trains could be diverted into Hoboken.  There are NJ Coast trains that use Hoboken.  It's only the EMUs (Electrical Multiple Units) that cannot switch voltages between the systems.  The locomotives that pull the bi-level cars are the same on all the lines and can switch voltages and now there are the dual power diesel/electric locomotives that could also go from the NEC into Hoboken.  That said, what can be done technically would be very difficult from an operational perspective, but they could have spread the pain.  Like many others I would hope that NJT can put an operational plan in order that will ensure the smooth movement of trains in and out of Hoboken.  This will require forethought, strategic thinking and flexibility - so I'm not hopeful.  I've ridden the PATH recently and it is clear that the system without all of the Midtown passengers is fairly close to capacity.  The journey from Maplewood to Hoboken should be less than 30 minutes.  If they had a ferry every 10-15 minutes to Midtown this might be doable and on nice days even pleasant, but I'm not holding my breath.

Has anyone heard whether the discount will apply to monthly only tickets or to all tickets (ie daily rides)?  As a daily-ticket holder I am concerned since all I hear about is monthly ticket discounts. 

dr_matt said:

Technically other trains could be diverted into Hoboken.  There are NJ Coast trains that use Hoboken.  It's only the EMUs (Electrical Multiple Units) that cannot switch voltages between the systems.  The locomotives that pull the bi-level cars are the same on all the lines and can switch voltages and now there are the dual power diesel/electric locomotives that could also go from the NEC into Hoboken.  That said, what can be done technically would be very difficult from an operational perspective, but they could have spread the pain.  Like many others I would hope that NJT can put an operational plan in order that will ensure the smooth movement of trains in and out of Hoboken.  This will require forethought, strategic thinking and flexibility - so I'm not hopeful.  I've ridden the PATH recently and it is clear that the system without all of the Midtown passengers is fairly close to capacity.  The journey from Maplewood to Hoboken should be less than 30 minutes.  If they had a ferry every 10-15 minutes to Midtown this might be doable and on nice days even pleasant, but I'm not holding my breath.

I did oversimplify a bit. There are ways to get one or two trains an hour moved to Hoboken from the other lines but it would be complicated, cause serious delays, and not open up the number of tracks moving the M&E would, as @dr_matt points out.  One nit pickey detail, I do not think all the power on the NEC is dual voltage yet. 

Vic DeLuca posted the following on Facebook.

NJ Transit Update from Wednesday's Legislative Session

Good News:  1) Four M&E early morning trains restored directly to NY Penn

2) Buses to NYC to leave from South Orange Train Station ----------------------------------------------------------------------- NJ Transit caught hell today at the hearings from legislators and mayors. Here are some of the details that emerged:

Morris and Essex (M&E) Trains: 1. Four (4) M&E trains will now travel directly into New York City. All of these trains will arrive in NYC on or before 7:00am. We were not yet told of any late afternoon/evening trains from NYC.

2. All other M&E trains will go to and leave from Hoboken.

3. Weekend M&E service to NYC not affected.

Buses: 1. Additional bus service to/from NYC will be provided at the South Orange Train Station. It seems these buses will go express to NYC but this has to be confirmed.

2. We asked for express bus service from additional train stations/municipalities but did not get an answer.

Newark Transfers: 1. M&E commuters will be able to transfer at Newark Broad to Newark Penn Station using the Newark Light Rail or station connecting buses. At Penn Station, commuters can transfer to trains to NYC. It was noted that the trains to NYC at Penn will be crowded but could accommodate more passengers.

Hoboken Transfers: 1. Transit estimates an additional 7,000 M&E commuters will detrain at Hoboken. Path will have additional cars and trains for 33rd Street but they cautioned that it will be crowded and at full capacity.

2. NJ Transit said it will have buses at Hoboken for transfer to NYC Port Authority.

3. Two ferries per hour will travel from Hoboken to 39th Street ferry dock.

Path Trains: 1. Path said it was cross honoring NJ Transit tickets at 33rd Street, Hoboken and Wall Street only. Requested cross honoring at all Path stations and need to follow up with them.

Duration of Summer Track Repair Work: 1. Monday, July 10 through Friday, September 1 - no commitment on work being completed by September 1st

NJ Transit has scheduled a meeting on Wednesday, June 7th with municipalities to discuss their plans in more detail. Maplewood and South Orange elected officials will be attending.

More to come as information is provided.

Photo: Mayors Robert Conley of Madison, Shawn Klein of Livingston, Sheena Collum of South Orange, me, Tim Dougherty of Morristown and Lester Taylor of East Orange.

Wall Street or WTC for PATH cross honoring?

Steve said:

Wall Street or WTC for PATH cross honoring?

It was written Wall Street but I presume he meant WTC, meaning for the Wall Street/downtown/financial crowd, particularly since there is no Wall St PATH stop.

what I figured, too, but just looking for.  clarification.