Did the CDC jump the gun?
bikefixed said:
I've come to a different mental space when it comes to the issue of vaccine hesitancy. I've been working in the Paterson Housing Authority buildings and while there was a concerted effort to bring the vaccine to that population directly (around mid-February), there was still some resistance. I've heard estimates of 20-20% of the residents refusing the vaccine (data from the building management staff). We tried to present information leading up to the visits, made all kinds of notices to make it convenient, right in the buildings themselves.
Many people just won't. You make no sales trying to argue with them, and certainly showing any disdain really turns them off so we have to try harder to understand them and try to employ techniques such as motivational interviewing to gently nudge them towards considering it. Paterson has even come up with a survey to try and gather some data to see if it helps them craft a better message. I've spent the last couple of weeks just trying to get people to take the survey.https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3ZJCY6G
It isn't so simple to just call them idiots. Some have real health concerns, like the person I spoke with for a good 30 minutes last week. She was concerned about the risk of organ damage and was adamant that they don't yet know enough about those vaccines' safety. She lost a kidney 7 years ago and doesn't want to risk it and no young white guy is gonna convince her otherwise. Some people are sick of the rancor. Some people don't know about medicine and are rightly suspicious of how people who look like they do are treated. The information doesn't always coincide from platform to platform. Plus, when new data comes about and groups like the CDC change guidance it is easy to just lump that in with things that are confusing.
There's the "First they said this and now they say..." type responses and unfortunately, open & forthright reporting about adverse reactions to getting vaccinated contributes to hesitancy. I mean "Okay then, so why do they have people wait around after the shot to make sure they're okay? I don't have to do that when I get a flu shot? Who the hell ever heard of a shot doing this to you?"If a person is not able to consume and interpret medical information, things like that can't be easy to set aside.
certainly I was being flippant with my comment about vaccination being an IQ test. But let's face it, the vast majority of people refusing the vaccine aren't the type of people you are trying to reach. It's becoming clear we're not getting to 70% of all U.S adults vaccinated. And of the 30%+ who won't, most are fully capable of understanding medical information if they sincerely try to. They have ideological or other irrational reasons for rejecting the information.
bikefixed said:
I've come to a different mental space when it comes to the issue of vaccine hesitancy. I've been working in the Paterson Housing Authority buildings and while there was a concerted effort to bring the vaccine to that population directly (around mid-February), there was still some resistance. I've heard estimates of 20-20% of the residents refusing the vaccine (data from the building management staff). We tried to present information leading up to the visits, made all kinds of notices to make it convenient, right in the buildings themselves.
Many people just won't. You make no sales trying to argue with them, and certainly showing any disdain really turns them off so we have to try harder to understand them and try to employ techniques such as motivational interviewing to gently nudge them towards considering it. Paterson has even come up with a survey to try and gather some data to see if it helps them craft a better message. I've spent the last couple of weeks just trying to get people to take the survey.https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/3ZJCY6G
It isn't so simple to just call them idiots. Some have real health concerns, like the person I spoke with for a good 30 minutes last week. She was concerned about the risk of organ damage and was adamant that they don't yet know enough about those vaccines' safety. She lost a kidney 7 years ago and doesn't want to risk it and no young white guy is gonna convince her otherwise. Some people are sick of the rancor. Some people don't know about medicine and are rightly suspicious of how people who look like they do are treated. The information doesn't always coincide from platform to platform. Plus, when new data comes about and groups like the CDC change guidance it is easy to just lump that in with things that are confusing.
There's the "First they said this and now they say..." type responses and unfortunately, open & forthright reporting about adverse reactions to getting vaccinated contributes to hesitancy. I mean "Okay then, so why do they have people wait around after the shot to make sure they're okay? I don't have to do that when I get a flu shot? Who the hell ever heard of a shot doing this to you?"If a person is not able to consume and interpret medical information, things like that can't be easy to set aside.
I've learned that the best way of selling something is to focus on "what is in it" for the person you are trying to persuade. Obviously, the very real obstacles you cite need to be addressed too. Focusing on the fear(s) and addressing them is an important first step. Sometimes there is no way of offsetting the concern, sometimes there is. There are medical conditions that would preclude that person's being vaccinated. There are belief systems that do not allow for exceptions, even when lives would be saved by the vaccine.
Per today's NYT, top states in % of people with at least one vaccine dose.
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
I was debating between wearing a mask outside or posting a comment questioning the mental health of others. Thank you, whoever the genial real person behind the notupset screen name is, for making my quandary moot.
notupset said:
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
You're not being mean but redundant - I think this has been observed many times on this thread and similar threads . Also, note that however silly or insane it is, mask wearing is still a posted rule in a number of places. I'll follow the rule even though I've long concluded that briefly passing someone outdoors poses no risk, even before being vaccinated (and I've generally been a shtickler for caution throughout this thing and still am in most ways).
PS: NJ hospitalizations down to 865 per the official NJ data hub today. The trends are cooking in a good way.
notupset said:
If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed.
Oh, OK, now you think the vaccinated are not supposed to go outside at all...
I look forward to meeting up, outside, with other people you think have mental health issues.
Just to clarify, you are mad at people wearing masks if they want to even though it does not affect you.
The big question - the only question to me really - is whether the circulation of an existing or future variant among the willfully unvaccinated poses a threat to the vaccinated. If not, I'm indifferent to the plight of those who made the choice to forgo the shot. I respect their freedom. If there's a variant-driven surge in the fall and winter that is more contagious and deadly but only to the unvaccinated, so be it.
bub said:
The big question - the only question to me really - is whether the circulation of an existing or future variant among the willfully unvaccinated poses a threat to the vaccinated. If not, I'm indifferent to the plight of those who made the choice to forgo the shot. I respect their freedom. If there's a variant-driven surge in the fall and winter that is more contagious and deadly but only to the unvaccinated, so be it.
in the case of vaccinations, it's not "freedom." We see this all the time with measles outbreaks that start among the unvaccinated but put others in danger who were vaccinated but didn't obtain immunity. Not to mention those who could not be vaccinated for medical reasons. Vaccination programs work best the higher the proportion of people who participate.
I do resent people who choose not to vaccinated out of a sense of "freedom." They are riding on the backs of those of us who were vaccinated, thus lowering their chances of exposure.
Overall our country is failing this test of basic decency toward the common good. We're finding out for real how many people really don't give a damn about their communities.
notupset said:
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
geez, why would you think someone would find your comment mean?
notupset said:
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
More likely they recently left a shop that requires masks but didn’t tear it off in a huff the moment they walked outside because it’s really not that big of a deal.
notupset said:
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
How on earth can you possibly confirm that covid was contracted while outdoors or not?
bub said:
The big question - the only question to me really - is whether the circulation of an existing or future variant among the willfully unvaccinated poses a threat to the vaccinated. If not, I'm indifferent to the plight of those who made the choice to forgo the shot. I respect their freedom. If there's a variant-driven surge in the fall and winter that is more contagious and deadly but only to the unvaccinated, so be it.
Our young children and grandchildren will be among the unvaccinated, at least until a vaccine is made available for the elementary school set and younger. Do you really want them to fall victim to a variant that is more likely to infect young children?
joan_crystal said:
bub said:
The big question - the only question to me really - is whether the circulation of an existing or future variant among the willfully unvaccinated poses a threat to the vaccinated. If not, I'm indifferent to the plight of those who made the choice to forgo the shot. I respect their freedom. If there's a variant-driven surge in the fall and winter that is more contagious and deadly but only to the unvaccinated, so be it.
Our young children and grandchildren will be among the unvaccinated, at least until a vaccine is made available for the elementary school set and younger. Do you really want them to fall victim to a variant that is more likely to infect young children?
No.
I think the idea was that if their no-vax choice only affects them, I'm indifferent to their plight. If it affects unvaccinated kids, obviously that's not good and as bad as variants breaking through to the vaccinated.
drummerboy said:
notupset said:
People who wear masks walking outdoors are silly. There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside. If you have been vaccinated and are outside you probably have mental health issues that should be addressed. I am not being mean here - just maybe seek help.
How on earth can you possibly confirm that covid was contracted while outdoors or not?
There are at least several studies that provide evidence for the rarer cases of COVID transmission occurring outdoors. I assume these occurred when unvaccinated people had unmasked conversations with an infected person. (The studies are prior to vaccine availability, but they do not specify the mask-wearing status of those involved in transmission). Here are three examples:
1. Indoor transmission of SARS-CoV-2
Transmission primarily occurs indoors, but this study identified one transmission in an outdoor environment, which involved two cases:
"A 27 year-old man had a conversation outdoors with an individual who had returned from Wuhan on January 25 and had symptom onset on February 1. This outbreak involved only two cases"
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/ina.12766
2. What settings have been linked to SARS-CoV-2 transmission clusters?
4 reports at outdoor building sites
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7327724/table/T1/
3. Outdoor transmission of COVID-19: Analysis of windspeed (unreviewed pre-print)
Transmission appears to occur more when the air is still than when there is more wind.
"This study suggests that outdoor exposures may be a pathway of COVID-19 transmission. This aligns with a number of anecdotal reports from Departments of Health in [COUNTY] and from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who have noted that gatherings of increased risk include outdoor social gatherings such as “Backyard barbecues” despite no scholarly evidence to support that conclusion. Indeed, backyard barbecues have been thought in [COUNTY] to be a main source of exposure despite being outdoors."
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.05.21251179v1.full-text
What I was getting at it in my one line comment is that you need to do some serious contact tracing to determine the probable source of infection, and in the U.S. at least, that has been probably our worst failing during the pandemic. The fact is that we have no clue about the actual source of the vast, vast majority of our infections.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03518-4
So, to make a claim like "There hasn't been a single confirmed case of covid infection from passing someone outside", is meaningless in an environment where contact tracing is so poorly implemented.
it can't be known for sure, but celebrations last fall in LA (many of them outdoor) may have been super spreader events.
Lakers, Dodgers Fans Helping Drive Uptick in Los Angeles COVID-19 Cases
yeah, by the same token, it's assumed that that trucker event in North(?) Dakota was probably a super spreader also.
ridski said:
notupset forgets we live in a stigma-free town.
Suggesting someone get help for their mental health is an assessment sort of thing, not casting aspersions or suggesting anyone is "less than." Sort of like suggesting someone who is bleeding all over goes to the ER. However, there may be some folks around here who would stigmatize those who were going maskless outdoors for the last year.
notupset said:
Suggesting someone get help for their mental health is an assessment sort of thing, not casting aspersions or suggesting anyone is "less than." Sort of like suggesting someone who is bleeding all over goes to the ER. ...
er, yeah. It's the same thing.
Failure to analogize.
drummerboy said:
yeah, by the same token, it's assumed that that trucker event in North(?) Dakota was probably a super spreader also.
Widespread SARS-CoV-2 Transmission Among Attendees at a Large Motorcycle Rally and their Contacts, 30 US Jurisdictions, August–September, 2020 (Clinical Infectious Diseases journal)
Here is my crazy thought for the day: If President Biden gives former President Trump some credit for the warp speed vaccine development program, then perhaps Trump's super-sensitive ego will somewhat be assuaged and Trump will then begin to publically tell his followers to get vaccinated. Like I said, a crazy thought.
My sense is that Biden (and with good reason) does not want to give Trump credit for anything, but perhaps this could be an exception since getting more people vaccinated is literally life-saving.
It is amazing the confidence in your opinions when it doesn't seem like you've done much research other than listen to what the authorities tell you.
And if you're just listening to the authorities, this order must seem very confusing. 6 weeks ago, the head of the CDS was warning of "impending doom". Fauci said exactly 1 week ago, that maybe we migh be back to normal next Mother's day. But now, we can relax mask policies. OK, sure that's science. Political Science maybe.
And the CDC says "early data shows" and this is conclusive proof? They have been wrong on all the early data. But anyone with any doubts about this is some kind of neanderthal.
Vacccines are the safest medicine evah!!! A couple of points on that nugget of brilliance. While vaccines in general have been incredibly beneficial, like any medicine they have risks. See the SV40 virus introduced by the Polio vaccine, or the Rotashield vaccine. And what of these mRNA vaccines. Are they really the same thing? I don't think they are. These things are brand new. I'm sure all here have looked at all the previously approved Moderna treatments and have investigated the outcomes of their prior attempts.
I'm also sure that people have looked into the studies of ivermectin which is a 50 year old treatment with an impressive saftety track record. I'm sure people have seen the studies that show how effective this treatment seems to be in Africa. Maybe we could offer this as another profilactic option for those who are hesitant to take these new vaccines? Nah. Where is the moral superiority in all that?
But the NIH says that there are no large scale studies that show ivermectin's effectiveness. I'm sure you all have looked into how a safe, widely available, effective treatment to a disease might effect the emergency approval of vaccines.
I'm sure you all know that there is tremendous amount of money being made. What do you think? Is there a financial incentive to offer shots even to those previously infected with the actual virus? Nah. People aren't motivated by that! This won't have any effect whatsoever on how many boosters people will need.
I'm sure you critical thinkers have considered all of the above. Either that or you're just doing like your told, and calling out those who question to make yourself feel all morally superior.
ridski said:
notupset forgets we live in a stigma-free town.
Where is this site hosted from?
cubby said:
drummerboy said:
terp said:
The younger and healthier a person is the higher the risk of a vaccine side effect becomes against the risk of the actual virus. For example, a healthy child's immune system offers more protection than the pharmaceutical companies claims regarding vaccine effectiveness.
horsesh!t. truly horsesh!t
Terp: Can you cite one reputable source to back up these comments?
Sure.
terp said:
I'm sure you critical thinkers have considered all of the above. Either that or you're just doing like your told.
We're all placing bets. I've been reading research articles before placing mine.
What sources are you working with?
Terp: Can you cite one reputable source to back up these comments?