Democratic Debate #2 - Night 1
Dennis_Seelbach said:
My take...
Bernie...retire already
Liz...good ideas, but too frenetic in your presentation.
Pete...WOW! Unfortunately, VP is the highest you'll go.
Everyone else...drop out tomorrow!
I’ll take him for VP. That’d be awesome. With Biden or Warren.
conandrob240 said:
in fairness, Kamala and Joe did not go at “each other”. She attacked him and he did not reciprocate.
I think the only way we have a chance against Trump is if these candidates treat each other with respect and not go on the attack. If people start hating one or more of these candidates and they win, the party will divide again.
You are right. I was typing this fast as I was running out the door. It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow night. Joe may have some comments for her and Tulsi Gabbard has already said that she is not qualified to be president based on her foreign policy statements (she does not seem to have a foreign policy).
basil said:
nan said:Why do you even bother watching anymore?
I'm setting this up for people to comment on the debate tonight. I will probably not be commenting because I'm going to a watch party and I might not even bring my computer.
I think it will be an interesting night with the lower polling people trying to jump in and attack the higher polling candidates. I don't think Bernie and Liz will go at each other like Kamala and Joe, I think they will try to maintain what they have going, but who knows as the stakes are really high. I think Pete will be giving his best high school valedictorian speech ever and annoying me the most. I think there will be a lot of "we don't need a revolution" type comments from the peanut gallery and the amount of platitudes will be off the charts.
I think the questions will be framed as bad or worse as MSNBC, but we will see.
Because I enjoy making predictions and then seeing what happens and revising. That's part of how reading comprehension works. Check it out.
As it turns out I was almost 100% right. The lower polling people like Hickenlooper and Delaney came right at Sanders and Warren on Medicare for All. This was exactly as I thought they would. Bernie and Liz did not go at each other and seem to have a tag team thing going in the middle. It was those two against the others and they both clearly won the debate. Bernie had the gloves off this time and he dug into a few people, including Pete on not taking corporate money (a bit subtle). He did great, but some of you have the same negative response no matter what he says. His comment about "I wrote the damn thing" was funny and he was way peppier than placid Pete.
Mayor Pete was as predicted Platitude Pete talking about "bold policies" and hold none himself. He hardly spoke and when he did he just sounded like he was giving a well written hollow speech. I kept forgetting he was there until they called on him. He said one thing that was good about the wars but otherwise. blah. It was not his night. He seemed to be standing on an island and just pontificating, not noticing others around him much.
The questions were framed to make Sanders and sometimes Warren look bad. But, they both were ready and handled them well. They constantly put --what do you call those bars at the bottom of the screen?--up statements like "Sanders supports [something very bad] do you agree? in those boxes at the bottom of the screen. It was clear they were trying to dump on him, but that's the deal when you go on CNN. The worst was when they interrupted a good discussion about foreign policy (I think) to ask Mayor Pete how he felt about being the youngest and standing next to the oldest. That was really low and stupid.
What I was surprised about the debate was that it was less of a free-for-all than what happened at MSNBC. I think the CNN people looked at that one and tried to put in more control. One good thing they did was allow each candidate to have opening statements, which was lacking in the MSNBC debate and caused some of the off-topic remarks that came from candidates who did not get a chance to give their key talking points.
I usually can't stand the dour Dana Bash, but her unemotional, stern delivery was OK here and I was glad that the moderators did not get chatty as they did on MSNBC. I thought it was handled much better. I even saw the value in the low polling fruit candidates I can't stand because they raised much better questions than the moderators and there was some really good discussions going on--not just attacking each other. I thought the Medicare for All discussion was good because there was a range of opinions. The gun control discussion was less interesting because they all basically agree.
I thought Marianne Williamson was also a good contributor as she said things you don't usually hear on the debate stage. I did not like her comments on Medicare for All, but her comments on war were great. The person sitting next to me said she speaks like a 1940's movie star and she does have an accent you don't hear anymore and does seem to be from a different era.
Amy Klobuchar, another dreary centrist running on "shut-up and be sensible, you can't have nice things" got a few points because she is at least her own person and not trying to be a fake Bernie like some of the others who were attacking Bernie while trying to sound like him and make it harder to follow.
Anyway, I'm falling asleep and I have to get up at 6 tomorrow so I'm probably not going to say much more while awake. . .
sbenois said:
This is a race between Kamala, Biden and Mayor Pete. Everyone else can go home.
Or go to one of your homes if you are Bernie the Multi-Millionaire.
The black people in the room I was watching in said that Mayor Pete should go home.
Let's not predict about Kamala and Joe until tomorrow.
sbenois said:
Every time Mayor Pete opens his mouth, brilliance comes out. He's Kennedy-rific.
Funny story. I went to this watch party and ran into a woman I have not seen in years. We have a mutual friend and he told me that she was for Mayor Pete and we talked about how disappointed we were. Anyway, I walk in and there she was, out of the blue, rooting for Bernie! She said she did like Pete, but no way could he hold a candle to Bernie!
I do agree that Pete does try to act like the Kennedys (he's like Marianne that way--trying to be from another era). However, anyone who falls for that should read the book, "The Dark Side of Camelot" ; that is an eye opener on fake glamour and the deep state and a better insight into Pete's ambition.
ml1 said:
and he'd nuke anyone.
That was not good for him. Kinda funny though.
nan said:
Funny story. I went to this watch party and ran into a woman I have not seen in years. We have a mutual friend and he told me that she was for Mayor Pete and we talked about how disappointed we were. Anyway, I walk in and there she was, out of the blue, rooting for Bernie! She said she did like Pete, but no way could he hold a candle to Bernie!
I do agree that Pete does try to act like the Kennedys (he's like Marianne that way--trying to be from another era). However, anyone who falls for that should read the book, "The Dark Side of Camelot" ; that is an eye opener on fake glamour and the deep state and a better insight into Pete's ambition.
Because Tulsi and Bernie don't have ambition, I guess.
sbenois said:
Bernie the MM, can't stop interrupting. He is a rude old white guy. RUDE!
Whrn you have no argument of substance..........simply repeat the same lie over and over. It is called "the big lie" technique and was used quite successfully in Germany in the 1930's by that little
man. Fortunately this is not Germany in the 1930's.
At least it gave us this gif.
[Edited to add] Reviewing news of the debate, the questions were awful.
The only time I will agree with nan, Mayor Pete does have a problem with African American support.
I actually like Mayor Pete and feel he remains neutral between moderate and progressive base. However, he has 0% (after the police shooting) support among African American voters; this is a problem.
It doesn't help that his city was front page news on the police shooting of a AA male. Also, the past replacement of the first African American Police Chief Darryl Boykins in his city, with two white police chiefs. (Boykins was allegedly taping his white senior officers’ phone calls in an attempt to catch them using racist language.)
This could have been handled better. Understanding that Mayor Pete was new at the mayoral game, he now says, he should have done things differently. I get that, but the recent unfortunate incident, could have been better handled too.
Outside of South Bend, African Americans continue to question and not trust him.
“Pete has a black problem,” Rep. Marcia Fudge (D-OH), the former chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, told the Daily Beast in a scathing indictment of 2020 presidential candidate and South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg. The millennial mayor has been making the case that his experience as a small-city executive makes him fit for the Oval Office. But he’s run into a roadblock.
“I don’t know of one black person out of Indiana that supports him,” Fudge said.
Buttigieg has called outreach with minorities “one of the most important pieces of homework for our campaign,” after polling showed him garnering only 2 percent of black voters’ support. After the shooting, he told reporters he gets “why people are not satisfied, because I’m not satisfied, either. I hope it’s understood that it’s not out of any lack of trying.” That incident and the recent shooting have only amplified what has been a constant shadow over the mayor’s presidential campaign: his at times strained relationships with communities of color."
https://www.vox.com/2019/6/27/18759807/pete-buttigieg-town-hall-protesters-police-shooting-2020
Mayor Pete has a lot of work to do if he is to garner any support of the African American and communities of color vote. Interesting Steve Kornacki was doing his usual research and had his graphs out the other day and one thing that resonated he said, "since 1992, no candidate has won the Democratic nomination for president without winning a majority of black vote. Black voters are likely to account for one of every four primary ballots cast in 2020."
Interesting read: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/journey-power-history-black-voters-1976-2020-n1029581
I didn't realize that "no first use of nuclear weapons" could be a disputed issue in a Democratic debate.
nohero said:
I didn't realize that "no first use of nuclear weapons" could be a disputed issue in a Democratic debate.
the WTF look on Warren's face when Bullock said a first strike was on the table was priceless
and I don't know if a couple of you are just trolling nan with your Sanders comments but the wrap ups I read this morning had him and Warren outperforming the field last night, with some positives for Mayor Pete as well.
Either that or your biases just blinded you to the actual performances of the candidates.
Fwiw I think Delaney should drop out right now. Maybe he can switch parties and run against Trump in the primaries. And I think this is a stupid thing to matter but Ryan was getting roasted on the Twitter for not putting his hand over his heart during the anthem.
I’m not a Bernie fan and I don’t like his style but he was good last night- much more animated and prepared with his answers. Kooky as usual but more true to his voter base. Warren was good as was Mayor Pete. It’s time for the rest of last nights panel to go.
Why do Black voters not support Mayor Pete? As much as I like him, that could be a huge problem against Trump. If it’s true that he doesn’t track well with Black voters, unfortunately, he has to go.
ml1 said:
and I don't know if a couple of you are just trolling nan with your Sanders comments but the wrap ups I read this morning had him and Warren outperforming the field last night, with some positives for Mayor Pete as well.
Either that or your biases just blinded you to the actual performances of the candidates.
Fwiw I think Delaney should drop out right now. Maybe he can switch parties and run against Trump in the primaries. And I think this is a stupid thing to matter but Ryan was getting roasted on the Twitter for not putting his hand over his heart during the anthem.
Trolling ?...............what was best for the country in 2016 will be best in 2020
This time the White House
Feel the Bern
The funny thing about living through history is that it takes months to actually unfold. This was another point in a long continuum. It's curious to hear people making decisions about what candidates are now irrelevant.
mrincredible said:
The funny thing about living through history is that it takes months to actually unfold. This was another point in a long continuum. It's curious to hear people making decisions about what candidates are now irrelevant.
those candidates have been irrelevant from the start
ml1 said:
those candidates have been irrelevant from the start
Well there was one comment in particular about the race being between three candidates, two of whom were not even on last night's debate stage. But there's a lot of campaigning left to do
another performance review...
5 things we learned from kind-of a meh debate
(via POLITICO for iOS)
phenixrising said:
The only time I will agree with nan, Mayor Pete does have a problem with African American support.
phenix - Sanders isn't exactly exciting African American support either - do you know why this is? The AA vote will be critical to beating Trump. Right now - Trump is repeating (seems like on an hourly basis) that we now have the lowest AA unemployment in history. This could possibly get him votes or depress the AA turnout. Biden is still winning the AA support by a good margin.
CNN apparently wanted a WWF version of debate (even their commercials last week reflected that) and that’s what they got, - a ring with ten corners.
In that regard I have to agree with this line which I read elsewhere;
“[The CNN] strategy was to use all the ‘I didn’t even know that guy was running’ candidates crowding their stage by picking them up in bundles and hurling them at Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders over, and over, and over”. They might as well have been handing Delaney folding chairs to throw.
I suppose that that sort-of reality show set-up fight was perhaps ultimately favorable for Warren and Sanders since they got that much more response time (if 15 seconds can be considered sensible response time).
Meanwhile, a couple of months ago I said that Warren had no chance but I’m beginning to perhaps change my mind. If she could stop yelling at me for just a minute she has shown herself to be courageous, savvy and quick on her feet, -In that regard she really had the best line of the night (which to our attention-deficit world always seems to be a “who won the debate” metric).
Warren’s response line to Delaney, -“I don’t understand why anybody would go to the trouble of running for president of the United States just to talk about what we really can’t do and shouldn’t fight for”. She’s damn right about that.
Pete continues to favorably impress and is often a welcome oasis of thoughtful composure and forthright persuasiveness. It was also amusing to see him standing next to Bernie, -like a family graduation photo.
Williamson is such an off-to-the side oddity in our present debate but despite her sometimes cult-leader rising rhetoric she is also the only one making some welcome deeper reality points. -Particularly how regarding healthcare, we should all be talking MUCH more not just about how to pay for health care problems but how to prevent them. -Especially the economics of food.
It’s interesting that despite Beto’s former ringing rally rhetoric success on the Senate campaign trail, he now comes off as wooden, robotic and canned, -like he’s not even really there. I think he has stopped believing in his chances.
Poor Tim Ryan despite his great height, oddly always looks terrified or that he is having a sudden gas attack.
Amy how? Or now rather, Amy who?
I look forward to tonight but I swear (and I say this as an oldish white guy), -if old white guy Joe Biden tells one more Granpa story about “As my old man back in Scranton used to say…” I will break my own TV screen and bill him for it.
BTW: There was a lot of talk last night about the potential plethora of plenty of manufacturing jobs building electric stuff. Andrew Yang (debating tonight) has been the only candidate speaking of how in about 5 minutes the vast majority of such jobs (and many others) will be done by AI and the ever-improving manufacturing robots. In other words, -let's not plan on jobs that humans won't be doing. We’ll see if he gets a chance to forewarn about that tonight.
So everyone here ended up where they started. Me too. I am still for Liz who persists.
A Leftish commentator, (Van Jones?) said "Sanders want so lead the revolution. Warren wants to lead the Country".
Pete had a good line about being called by the Republicans "crazy socialists" no matter what they do.
But as to Socialism, Ryan said he would appoint a Cabinet official in charge of Manufacturing. That is the closes to Socialism than what I've heard from any other candidate
STANV said:
Pete had a good line about being called by the Republicans "crazy socialists" no matter what they do.
Hmm....
Who else has been making that argument?...
Pete's line about Republicans questioning their legacy for standing behind Trump was pretty good also.
Add Bullock to the Dem hunting lobby along with Ryan. Out of only 20 Dems 2 are anxious to assure us that it is important to give a shout out to the 6% of Americans who hunt. Hunting gives the greatest excuse to gun enthusiasts to stock up on that arsenal.
Can Bullock and Ryan please join the GOP?
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My take...
Bernie...retire already
Liz...good ideas, but too frenetic in your presentation.
Pete...WOW! Unfortunately, VP is the highest you'll go.
Everyone else...drop out tomorrow!