Democratic Debate #2 - Night 1
conandrob240 said:
And for this to work (defeating Trump), we need to make a much quicker decision than last time. Many of these candidates should be gone by now
I don't see anybody outside of Biden, Harris, Sanders, Mayor Pete and Warren being relevant after tonight. I would love to see a bunch of debates with only those 5.
ml1 said:
conandrob240 said:I don't see anybody outside of Biden, Harris, Sanders, Mayor Pete and Warren being relevant after tonight. I would love to see a bunch of debates with only those 5.
And for this to work (defeating Trump), we need to make a much quicker decision than last time. Many of these candidates should be gone by now
See...we can agree on something.
steel said:
Meanwhile, a couple of months ago I said that Warren had no chance but I’m beginning to perhaps change my mind. If she could stop yelling at me for just a minute
I think that's her normal speaking voice. She just seems like a boisterous person.
Would love to see the debates with those five as long as Bernie the Multi-millionaire's microphone is turned down or off completely.
From what I saw last night, none of the ten ("10") first-night-second-round-of-debate candidates mentioned either Mueller or Russian election interference. Please let me know if I missed such a mention inadvertently.
My conclusion: focus on Mueller, Mueller's report and alleged Russian interference is no longer considered a substantive issue.
PS Let's see if any of the above issues are mentioned tonight in the second-night-second-round of debate.
nohero said:
I didn't realize that "no first use of nuclear weapons" could be a disputed issue in a Democratic debate.
I wish there had been someone with z "no nuclear weapons" view.
jamie said:
phenix - Sanders isn't exactly exciting African American support either - do you know why this is? The AA vote will be critical to beating Trump. Right now - Trump is repeating (seems like on an hourly basis) that we now have the lowest AA unemployment in history. This could possibly get him votes or depress the AA turnout. Biden is still winning the AA support by a good margin.
Where is your evidence for this? I remember the last poll on that rated Bernie high with African Americans.
nan said:
Where is your evidence for this? I remember the last poll on that rated Bernie high with African Americans.
Link?
proeasdf said:
From what I saw last night, none of the ten ("10") first-night-second-round-of-debate candidates mentioned either Mueller or Russian election interference. Please let me know if I missed such a mention inadvertently.
My conclusion: focus on Mueller, Mueller's report and alleged Russian interference is no longer considered a substantive issue.
PS Let's see if any of the above issues are mentioned tonight in the second-night-second-round of debate.
they answered the questions that were asked.
I agree with much of this, which points out how much the Democrats use Republican talking points to attack thier own.
Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders Dominate Democratic Debate Set Up to Ambush Them
https://theintercept.com/2019/07/30/elizabeth-warren-bernie-sanders-dominate-democratic-debate/
mtierney said:
another performance review...
5 things we learned from kind-of a meh debate
(via POLITICO for iOS)
https://politi.co/2GCS1VO
Not much of an article whose major points are listed as, "Warren and Bernie really do like each other, and John Delaney is an actual candidate for president."
No one really knows how they feel about each other but they sure needed each other to fend off he CNN attack dogs and John Delaney needs to drop out.
conandrob240 said:
Why do Black voters not support Mayor Pete? As much as I like him, that could be a huge problem against Trump. If it’s true that he doesn’t track well with Black voters, unfortunately, he has to go.
Look about 5 posts above your original and phoenixrising has lots of info on Pete's problem with black people. And there is even more than that.
Ari Melber is interviewing Marianne Williamson. He says she is "trending" on social media.He asked her about what seems to be an Anti-Vac tendency. She says why trust Big Pharma, but as she and her daughter was vaccinated and here will be more scientists in her administration.
However when she said that Attorney Generals all over the Country are bringing prosecutions about Opiodes she lost me.
It's Attorneys General!
sbenois said:
Would love to see the debates with those five as long as Bernie the Multi-millionaire's microphone is turned down or off completely.
This from the strongest ally President Trump has. He who does not learn from History is doomed to continue the same foolishness ad infinitum
jamie said:
Link?
I asked you for a link! You are the one who said Bernie was not popular with African Americans. Show me the data.
Bernie the Multi-Millionaire has a problem connecting with African Americans.
sbenois said:
Bernie the Multi-Millionaire has a problem connecting with African Americans.
https://www.mediaite.com/online/am-joy-panel-cracks-up-over-guests-criticism-of-bernie-over-reparations-rip-to-your-mentions/
You have till June 2, 2020 to continue with your blather. Better get a new Game Boy to occupy your time after that.
Feel the Bern
jamie said:
phenixrising said:phenix - Sanders isn't exactly exciting African American support either - do you know why this is? The AA vote will be critical to beating Trump. Right now - Trump is repeating (seems like on an hourly basis) that we now have the lowest AA unemployment in history. This could possibly get him votes or depress the AA turnout. Biden is still winning the AA support by a good margin.
The only time I will agree with nan, Mayor Pete does have a problem with African American support.
Jamie, I agree with you on Sanders and addressed this in another thread. I was able to find my comment and will post here again.
“Issues on race still dog Bernie today. What he did years ago, is not going to cut it now. His economic platform would hurt the low income down the road. Despite Bernie’s goals, his tax proposal would increase the cost of hiring low-skill workers, resulting in higher prices for consumers or fewer job opportunities for workers.
For Bernie to appeal to AA voters, he’ll have to work harder on racial issues than he did four years ago. Four years ago, his opponent was Clinton, whom young black voter called her out for her “superpredators comment from 1996 labeling young African Americans. Yeah, he received the young vote back then.
The 2020 primary will be different. Sanders is running against younger progressives such as Harris, Booker, Pete B. and Castro and many other candidates who lack Clinton‘s baggage with voters of color. And, Economic inequality has now been adopted by every other serious candidate in this race.
Younger African American voters who backed Sanders in 2016 aren’t fully on board with his 2020 campaign. My niece who once backed Bernie, is one of those past supporters.
Comparing Bernie to other progressives, in contrast he seems older and out of touch with how progressives present similar ideas, and focused on relying on his history as a progressive legislator. That may have worked against Hillary Clinton, but it won’t work against the other progressives in this race.
When asked at the Women of Color Summit, "What do you believe is the federal government’s role to fight against the rise of white nationalism and white terrorist acts, and how do you plan to lead on that in your first year as president?”
Instead of staying on topic he talks about raising wages yada, yada. Here come the boos. When the commentator Joy Reid ask the question again, Bernie brings up the “MLK card” and how he supported Jesse Jackson when he ran for President.
Really Bernie? How many years ago was that? No wonder the audience went off on him. And you cannot keep bringing up MLK, every time you’re around people of color.
Interesting take when it come to the African American voters and Bernie:
"For someone who is heralded as America’s leading progressive politician, Sanders’ views on race are awfully regressive. The more Sanders touches on race, the more dismissive he sounds. He and Democratic insiders can’t seem to understand that black and Latinx folks have the same economic fears as the white working-class voters they so covet. Someone who considers himself a progressive would find a way to draw parallels between these groups of people while dealing with their individual needs. A true progressive has the ability to shift gears and adjust his approach.
It is clear that Sanders simple chooses not to do so."
https://www.theroot.com/bernie-sanders-is-not-a-real-progressive-1820122317
And this is one of the reasons African American voters are hesitant in supporting Bernie.
Thank you for that. It's obvious that Bernie the Multi-Millionaire is a deeply flawed soon to be former candidate.
The black vote issue isn't just Pete's. Biden is absolutely dominating the black vote in every poll. All those buddy videos with Obama are paying off.
nan said:
jamie said:I asked you for a link! You are the one who said Bernie was not popular with African Americans. Show me the data.
Link?
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3635
- Biden gets 53 percent of black Democrats, with 8 percent for Sanders, 7 percent for Harris and 4 percent for Warren;
jamie said:
https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3635
- Biden gets 53 percent of black Democrats, with 8 percent for Sanders, 7 percent for Harris and 4 percent for Warren;
I did not look closely at this poll, but it does not suggest that Bernie has some major problem with African Americans. He's doing as well or better than most of the candidates. Biden getting 53% seems strange and makes me wonder if they emphasized an older voters. Also, they said "very liberal" voters went for Warren, not Sanders, which makes me wonder what is a "very liberal" voter. Liberal does not seem to mean "left."
phenixrising said:
Jamie, I agree with you on Sanders and addressed this in another thread. I was able to find my comment and will post here again.
“Issues on race still dog Bernie today. What he did years ago, is not going to cut it now. His economic platform would hurt the low income down the road. Despite Bernie’s goals, his tax proposal would increase the cost of hiring low-skill workers, resulting in higher prices for consumers or fewer job opportunities for workers.
For Bernie to appeal to AA voters, he’ll have to work harder on racial issues than he did four years ago. Four years ago, his opponent was Clinton, whom young black voter called her out for her “superpredators comment from 1996 labeling young African Americans. Yeah, he received the young vote back then.
The 2020 primary will be different. Sanders is running against younger progressives such as Harris, Booker, Pete B. and Castro and many other candidates who lack Clinton‘s baggage with voters of color. And, Economic inequality has now been adopted by every other serious candidate in this race.
Younger African American voters who backed Sanders in 2016 aren’t fully on board with his 2020 campaign. My niece who once backed Bernie, is one of those past supporters.
Comparing Bernie to other progressives, in contrast he seems older and out of touch with how progressives present similar ideas, and focused on relying on his history as a progressive legislator. That may have worked against Hillary Clinton, but it won’t work against the other progressives in this race.
When asked at the Women of Color Summit, "What do you believe is the federal government’s role to fight against the rise of white nationalism and white terrorist acts, and how do you plan to lead on that in your first year as president?”
Instead of staying on topic he talks about raising wages yada, yada. Here come the boos. When the commentator Joy Reid ask the question again, Bernie brings up the “MLK card” and how he supported Jesse Jackson when he ran for President.
Really Bernie? How many years ago was that? No wonder the audience went off on him. And you cannot keep bringing up MLK, every time you’re around people of color.
Interesting take when it come to the African American voters and Bernie:
"For someone who is heralded as America’s leading progressive politician, Sanders’ views on race are awfully regressive. The more Sanders touches on race, the more dismissive he sounds. He and Democratic insiders can’t seem to understand that black and Latinx folks have the same economic fears as the white working-class voters they so covet. Someone who considers himself a progressive would find a way to draw parallels between these groups of people while dealing with their individual needs. A true progressive has the ability to shift gears and adjust his approach.
It is clear that Sanders simple chooses not to do so."
https://www.theroot.com/bernie-sanders-is-not-a-real-progressive-1820122317
And this is one of the reasons African American voters are hesitant in supporting Bernie.
I remember when you posted this and I wrote a long reply and you did not respond. The Root has an establishment bias, so I'm not surprised they would say something stupid like "Bernie is not a Progressive." That article is from 2017, before his current campaign, also, so not current.
I prefer the more Progressive Black Agenda report. Do you ever read them? Here's a recent article they posted about Bernie's appeal to blacks:
Sanders, Biden and the Electability Scam
Sanders has gone a all out in a big way to attract African American voters for his 2020 campaign. He hired a very diverse staff and he has crafted a lot of policies with African Americans in mind. He is also the most popular candidate with Hispanics (https://theintercept.com/2019/04/06/bernie-sanders-latino-hispanic-voters/)
Of course any venue he attends with Joy Reid involved will usually end up with Sanders not being spoken well about--I remember his participation in that "Women of Color" event and they edited the video to misrepresent what he said. I don't know how Joy Reid still has a job since her anti-gay writings came out and she tried to blame them on Russian hackers. But, she has a solid history with the DNC and so she's part of the "Stop Sanders" movement and she does what she can.
Sanders got a hugely positive reception at the NAACP forum in Detroit.
Thought this a good article on the first night's debate. It summed up my frustration with centrists and the corporate media who think popular policies like Medicare for All are akin to Bolshevism.
CNN’s Attempted Hit Job on Sanders and Warren
I was unable to watch all the CNN Democratic presidential candidates’ debate last Tuesday night, but every time I looked in it was stuck on one of the three following themes:
#1. Conservative CNN “moderators” and absurdly marginal corporate Democrat pseudo-candidates like John Hickenlooper and John Delaney attacking the mildly social-democratish neo-New Deal progressive Bernie Sanders and the leftish liberal Elizabeth Warren as too “radical,” “socialist,” and too “extreme.” Listening just to corporate lackeys like Delaney, Hickenlooper, and CNN’s Jack Tapper and Don Lemon, you’d think Sanders was a Bolshevik and Warren was a Menshevik transplanted from revolutionary Russia 102 years ago — this for advocating elementarily civilized measures (supported by most U.S.-Americans) like Medicare for All (M4A), free public education, and green jobs.
Why are clowns like Delaney and Hickenlooper on the stage despite having essentially no popular support in their pretend bids for the Democratic presidential nomination? They are there for one reason: to assault Warren and especially Sanders because Warren and particularly Sanders are seen by establishment party and media elites as threats to critical features of corporate rule.
#2. Consistent corporatist framing of Single Payer health insurance (M4A) as an authoritarian, big brother assault on people’s supposedly beloved existing private health insurance rather than as what it would really be: a great social, democratic, and human rights victory for the common good over the nation’s parasitic and super-expensive for-profit insurance, drug, and hospital syndicates. As the left historian and journalist Terry Thomas wrote following the Tuesday night debate:
“…the purpose of [CNN] spending so much time on health care was because they desperately wanted to destroy this single-payer business, or at least make it appear to be just another empty promise from politicians who have no intention of doing anything. So a plan designed to provide EVERYONE with affordable health care was pilloried and then actually framed as a program to take health insurance away from people.”
#3. Attempted divide-and-conque: efforts to enlist Warren in the destruction of the “radical socialist” Sanders and to divide progressive voters between Sanders and Warren.
It could hardly be more obvious that CNN (like MSNBC, which held the first two Democratic debates earlier this summer) wants to pave the way for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination of one of the leaders of the Democrats’ “Wall Street primary” so far: the ridiculous right-wing corporatist Joe Biden, the mass-incarcerationist fake-progressive Kamala Harris, and the neoliberal wonder-boy Pete Butiggieg (a younger and gayer Tony Blair).
In service to this project, establishment Democrats and their corporate cable news talking heads demonize social-democratic policies like Single Payer as excessively radical, expensive, and idealistic. They seek to cultivate divisions between the party’s leftmost voters and candidates. And they describe the top three corporate-Democratic candidates (Biden, Harris, and Butiggieg) in favorable terms as “moderates.” It’s a misnomer. As Norman Solomon explains:
“As a practical matter, in the routine lexicon of U.S. mass media, ‘moderate’ actually means pro-corporate and reliably unwilling to disrupt the dominant power structures. ‘Moderate’ is a term of endearment in elite circles, a label conferred on politicians who won’t rock establishment boats. ‘Moderate’ sounds so much nicer than, say, ‘enmeshed with Wall Street’ or ‘supportive of the military-industrial complex.’…In the corporate media environment, we’re accustomed to pretty euphemisms that fog up unpretty realities — and the haze of familiarity brings the opposite of clarity…If Joe Biden is a ‘moderate,’ the soothing adjective obscures grim realities….How are [Biden] policies really ‘moderate’ when they perpetuate and increase extreme suffering due to vast income inequality? Or when they support U.S. wars causing so much death and incalculable anguish? Or when they refuse to challenge the fossil-fuel industry and only sign onto woefully inadequate measures in response to catastrophic climate change?…Biden’s record of words and deeds is ‘moderate’ only if we ignore the extreme harm that he has done on matters ranging from civil rights and mass incarceration to student debt and the credit card industry to militarism and war.”
Much the same applies to Harris and Butiggieg, who have much shorter policy records but who would hardly be cashing in on the big money election funding market if there was any substance behind their progressive posturing. “In keeping with timeworn rhetoric from corporate Democrats,” Solomon notes, “Harris repeatedly said during the [Wednesday night CNN Democratic-presidential] debate that she wants to guarantee ‘access’ to healthcare — using a standard corporate-friendly buzzword that detours around truly guaranteeing healthcare as a human right.”
A related function of the debates is to dilute the relevance of policy altogether since most U.S.-American citizens back the supposedly radical-Left (actually moderately social-democratic and progressive-populist) policies and roughly egalitarian societal vision advanced by Sanders. Here the aim is to divert voters from serious matters of public policy and focus them instead on comparatively trivial matters like candidate looks, age, color, size, gender, ethnicity, age, stage performance – especially the ability to rapidly spit-out pithy one-linters and put-downs – and the like.
Sanders and Warren did very well under the circumstances. Functioning like a smart tag-team, neither of them took the divide-and-rule bait. Both ably shot down claims that their policy ideas are “too radical” for voters and a general election. Both deftly reminded the audience of the terrible prices U.S.-Americans pay for the nation’s for-profit health care system.
They also scored the best one-liners of the night. Responding to the corporate candidates’ apparent belief that the world’s richest nation can’t afford elementarily decent and allegedly “radical” and “extremist” things like quality free health insurance for all and green jobs programs to help save life on Earth, Warren memorably asked “Why go through the trouble of running for president and then talk about what we can’t do and can’t fight for?”
Sanders offered a simple four-word comment after the ridiculous stooge John Delaney intoned that “I’m the only one on this stage who actually has experience in the health care business. And with all due respect, I don’t think my colleagues understand the business.”
“It’s not a business!” Sanders said, to great applause. As Bernie Sanders knows very well, of course, American health care is unfortunately a big business that values profits over people in the U.S. But as everyone listening understood, Sanders’ point was that health care needs to be grasped as a human right, not as a business. Imagine that.
For Sale
Sponsored Business
Promote your business here - Businesses get highlighted throughout the site and you can add a deal.
And for this to work (defeating Trump), we need to make a much quicker decision than last time. Many of these candidates should be gone by now