Biden vs Trump
mtierney cites "three years+ of 2016 election results denial" as an impediment to the current administration, but the only person i remember expressing doubts about the 2016 voting results was...DJT.
Smedley said:
Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Frankly I think you're off your own rocker with the vehemence and outright dismissal in your own arguments, ie. "no comparison", "something so obvious to everyone except his cultists", and previously stated "preposterous". I think you either have your head in the sand, and or more likely, you've fallen victim to the mental trap of believing what you want to believe.
I did cite a whole bunch of people who have had direct contact with Trump who think he's losing it. What do you have regarding Biden, aside from your opinion?
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Well we'll have to agree to disagree. Frankly I think you're off your own rocker with the vehemence and outright dismissal in your own arguments, ie. "no comparison", "something so obvious to everyone except his cultists", and previously stated "preposterous". I think you either have your head in the sand, and or more likely, you've fallen victim to the mental trap of believing what you want to believe.
I did cite a whole bunch of people who have had direct contact with Trump who think he's losing it. What do you have regarding Biden, aside from your opinion?
Cory Booker and Julian Castro?
As far as your list of people, that's great but I'm not sure what your point is. I 100% agree Trump is losing his marbles, as I've said all along. If you're looking for someone to take the other side of this argument, perhaps try mtierney.
while we're on the topic, a little earlier you said "I have to wonder why you give Trump the benefit of the doubt on something so obvious to everyone except his cultists"
Pray tell, on what do you base your assertion that Biden cognition > Trump cognition is "so obvious" to everyone except his cultists? It may be so obvious to you, but I'm wondering how you extrapolate so casually.
Trump's support is around 40%, so I think it's reasonable to say his cultists represent maybe 20-30% of the electorate. Fair?
so, do you have data or evidence that shows your opinion is "so obvious" to the 70-80% of voters who are non-cultists? Sure most people on here agreed with you, but that's a very limited sample size, and MOL is a blue forum in a blue town in a blue state, hardly representative of the broad universe of Trump non-cultists.
I assume you have the data support. You never miss an opportunity to piss on my posts as shoddy, poorly reasoned, lacking data support and just generally pulled from my posterior, so I can't imagine you would post a half-baked assertion pulled from your own ( ( ( .
Or would you?
Smedley said:
Cory Booker and Julian Castro?
As far as your list, that's great but I'm not sure what your point is. I 100% agree Trump is losing his marbles, as I've said all along. If you're looking for someone to take the other side of this argument, perhaps try mtierney.
while we're on the topic, a little earlier you said "I have to wonder why you give Trump the benefit of the doubt on something so obvious to everyone except his cultists"
Pray tell, on what do you base your assertion that Biden cognition > Trump cognition is "so obvious" to everyone except his cultists?
Trump's support is around 40%, so I think it's reasonable to say his cultists represent maybe 20-30% of the electorate. Fair?
so, do you have data or evidence that shows your opinion is "so obvious" to the 70-80% of voters who are non-cultists? Sure most people on here agreed with you, but that's a very limited sample size, and MOL is a blue forum in a blue town in a blue state, hardly representative of the broad universe of Trump non-cultists.
I assume you have the data support. You never miss an opportunity to piss on my posts as shoddy, poorly reasoned, lacking data support and just generally pulled from my posterior, so I can't imagine you would post a half-baked assertion pulled from your own ( ( ( .
Or would you?
Trump was prescribed the MoCA by a doctor. Why do you think that was?
I imagine because there is concern that he's losing his marbles, which he probably is.
What is your basis for saying Trump's mental decline being worse than Biden's is "so obvious to everyone except (Trump's) cultists?"
Smedley said:
I imagine because there is concern that he's losing his marbles, which he probably is.
What is your basis for saying Trump's mental decline being worse than Biden's is "so obvious to everyone except (Trump's) cultists?"
Biden's doctor hasn't prescribed him the MoCA. That should be obvious to anyone who's paying attention and cares about this issue.
Why are you getting so worked up over my response? You know how I know your conclusion about Biden is only your own subjective opinion? Because that's what you told us.
My conclusion about Trump is not my opinion. It's the conclusion of people who know him and see him up close. And yes there are obvious public examples of their concerns that anyone can see. Unless they don't want to for whatever reason.
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
I imagine because there is concern that he's losing his marbles, which he probably is.
What is your basis for saying Trump's mental decline being worse than Biden's is "so obvious to everyone except (Trump's) cultists?"
Why are you getting so worked up over my response?
Actually I'm having fun with your response. You're big on belittling posts that you view as inferior, but then you yourself throw out a wholly unsupported opinion that's pulled right out of your own keester. And then you won't even acknowledge your statement was just the kind of thing you rail against, instead you ignore and deflect by questioning my response to your response.
Glass houses.
Here’s Uncle Joe....
BTW, I attributed Biden’s squinting and his difficulty reading a teleprompter to eyesight issues. I have since heard that he has had one or more plastic surgeries to his face. Smoothing out aging facial lines etc leaves a waxy look to the skin.
When you guys get back to Biden vs Trump instead of Smedley vs Ml1, give a shout.
Smedley said:
Actually I'm having fun with your response. You're big on belittling posts that you view as inferior, but then you yourself throw out a wholly unsupported opinion that's pulled right out of your own keester. And then you won't even acknowledge your statement was just the kind of thing you rail against, instead you ignore and deflect by questioning my response to your response.
Glass houses.
I've posted supporting info. Just because you're ignoring doesn't mean it isn't there.
And what nohero said.
Yeah nohero is right. I've had my say, clearly ml1 declines to disclose the methodology for his survey of Trump non-cultists, so we'll have to assume his statement regarding what that group thinks is "so obvious" is his unsupported opinion and move on.
tying the whole cognition issue back to the election, I think it's the change factor that's the risk for Biden.
trump is a known commodity, out there every day. Lots of stupid stuff, evidence of cognitive decline, etc. The whole package. Some people love him , some people hate him, and some people are in between. But I don't see voters' views of him changing more than marginally between now and election day.
with Biden, I suspect a lot of voters didnt watch the democratic debates, and Biden hasnt been out there all that much on the campaign trail. So for some voters, the presidential debates might be the first time they pay attention to him. They'll remember him as vp of course, but I think there's a risk some voters will be taken aback by his decline since then.
Smedley said:
Yeah nohero is right. I've had my say, clearly ml1 declines to disclose the methodology for his survey of Trump non-cultists, so we'll have to assume his statement regarding what that group thinks is "so obvious" is his unsupported opinion and move on.
all of those posts and THAT'S what you had an issue with? One obvious bit of hyperbole? Sheesh if that had been clear to me I would have conceded that point long ago.
So let's get back to the core of the discussion, and the really important question -- which candidate has shown real and serious cognition decline and which one hasn't. There is plenty of evidence with regard to Trump, which I've cited.
With regard to Biden, you still haven't cited anyone with first hand contact with him, or mental health expertise who is concerned about failing cognition.
Now if the point is that Biden has to overcome a load of propaganda alleging he has dementia, that's a different point and one that I think most people would agree with. And even with his lackluster debate performance this past year, debates might be his best opportunity to make the case that he's the sharper candidate.
nohero said:
When you guys get back to Biden vs Trump instead of Smedley vs Ml1, give a shout.
Yeah, these kids tend to go on for pages and pages.
But on Biden vs Trump, what worries me is that Trump's approval seems to have stabilized (at around 40%). And that's in the middle of some of the biggest crises our country has ever seen, AND he has never shown his incompetence and lack of compassion more clearly. I don't think we have this election locked up. An incumbent has a huge advantage to begin with, and then he has Russia and China probably hacking whatever they can to help him, AND he has all that dirty money behind him. We better do our darnedest to win this thing.
The other thing that concerns me (but maybe this should go in another topic) is this disconnect between the economy and the stock market. The economy is in shambles, and I don't think is going to recover any time soon. Yet the stock market is near record highs. This is completely irrational.
Smedley said:
Yeah nohero is right. I've had my say, clearly ml1 declines to disclose the methodology for his survey of Trump non-cultists, so we'll have to assume his statement regarding what that group thinks is "so obvious" is his unsupported opinion and move on.
That is such a "not really moving on" of a "let's move on".
I have never liked Trump as a person seeing him as greedy, selfish and a deadbeat. To that he added racism in reaction to the Central Park Five and in his embrace of "birtherism".
He decided to go hard Right in seeking the GOP nomination and in governing (except for the Interventionism of the Neo-Cons) with his anti-immigrant policies and his embrace of the Christian Right's intolerance of sexual minorities as well as his anti-regulatory and anti-environment policies, anti-gun control policies and almost total pro Big Business policies.
Now lets add a dose of affection for authoritarians and authoritarian policies.
For all those reasons I am for anyone but Trump. Further, those of you who have been on here for many years may remember my pro-Biden sentiments back in 2008. I believe that at his core Biden is a good person who will govern in a reasonable manner, although probably in a manner too "moderate" for my taste.
Who shows evidence of cognitive decline in this clip, Biden or Fox News?
Context - Biden is out on a bike ride, reporter shouts, "Have you picked a running mate?" Biden says, "Yes" and reporter excitedly asks, "Who?" Watch for answer - Here is the video... https://t.co/aFv10lufrb pic.twitter.com/1jHIsF9vPi
basil said:
nohero said:
When you guys get back to Biden vs Trump instead of Smedley vs Ml1, give a shout.
Yeah, these kids tend to go on for pages and pages.
But on Biden vs Trump, what worries me is that Trump's approval seems to have stabilized (at around 40%). And that's in the middle of some of the biggest crises our country has ever seen, AND he has never shown his incompetence and lack of compassion more clearly. I don't think we have this election locked up. An incumbent has a huge advantage to begin with, and then he has Russia and China probably hacking whatever they can to help him, AND he has all that dirty money behind him. We better do our darnedest to win this thing.
True. As the incumbent Trump definitely has built-in advantages. Just look at two headlines on Bloomberg right now. "Trump Orders Extended Jobless Benefits" and then two down, "President Plans Order to Require Pre-Existing Condition Coverage".
i have a feeling we'll be seeing more of this warm fuzzy version of Trump in the next couple months.
nohero said:
Smedley said:
Yeah nohero is right. I've had my say, clearly ml1 declines to disclose the methodology for his survey of Trump non-cultists, so we'll have to assume his statement regarding what that group thinks is "so obvious" is his unsupported opinion and move on.
That is such a "not really moving on" of a "let's move on".
Funny, I was thinking pretty much exactly that as I wrote what I wrote.
can I be a noodge? Most certainly. But between you, me and the lamppost, sometimes I find ml1's imperiousness to be insufferable.
ml1 said:
Smedley said:
Yeah nohero is right. I've had my say, clearly ml1 declines to disclose the methodology for his survey of Trump non-cultists, so we'll have to assume his statement regarding what that group thinks is "so obvious" is his unsupported opinion and move on.
all of those posts and THAT'S what you had an issue with? One obvious bit of hyperbole? Sheesh if that had been clear to me I would have conceded that point long ago.
So let's get back to the core of the discussion, and the really important question -- which candidate has shown real and serious cognition decline and which one hasn't. There is plenty of evidence with regard to Trump, which I've cited.
With regard to Biden, you still haven't cited anyone with first hand contact with him, or mental health expertise who is concerned about failing cognition.
I cited Booker and Castro , which you ignored. They "went there" wrt Biden's cognition, which I think is significant.
otherwise, what we know or hear about both men's cognition is apples and oranges. Trump is POTUS, so of course there is more scrutiny on him than Biden, who is a private citizen. Trump is a dick who burns bridges and Biden isn't, so there are people like scaramucci who flame Trump, whereas I suspect comparable people close to Biden would want to protect him, so we don't hear from them.
the moca test you cite means something, but if you think the fact that Trump's doctor ordered it for him but Biden's doctor didn't order it for him is proof positive that Biden is sharper, I disagree.
anyway after all this I dont even think who's losing it more, Trump or Biden is the meaningful comp when it comes to this election. As I said in my post from earlier today, i think the meaningful comp is Biden 2020 vs Biden 2012.
nohero said:
Who shows evidence of cognitive decline in this clip, Biden or Fox News?
Context - Biden is out on a bike ride, reporter shouts, "Have you picked a running mate?" Biden says, "Yes" and reporter excitedly asks, "Who?" Watch for answer -
Pretty funny.
Smedley said:
I cited Booker and Castro , which you ignored. They "went there" wrt Biden's cognition, which I think is significant.
otherwise, what we know or hear about both men's cognition is apples and oranges. Trump is POTUS, so of course there is more scrutiny on him than Biden, who is a private citizen. Trump is a dick who burns bridges and Biden isn't, so there are people like scaramucci who flame Trump, whereas I suspect comparable people close to Biden would want to protect him, so we don't hear from them.
the moca test you cite means something, but if you think the fact that Trump's doctor ordered it for him but Biden's doctor didn't order it for him is proof positive that Biden is sharper, I disagree.
anyway after all this I dont even think who's losing it more, Trump or Biden is the meaningful comp when it comes to this election. As I said in my post from earlier today, i think the meaningful comp is Biden 2020 vs Biden 2012.
except that Booker and Castro didn't say Biden was losing it. Here's a quote from Booker afterwards:
Asked whether he was suggesting Biden was too old to be president, Booker responded, "I'm definitely not saying that, because I've listened to Joe Biden over the years, and often felt that there are times when he's going on, or meandering in his speech."
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/461238-booker-defends-castro-remarks-on-biden
So Booker was saying Joe's been like that for years.
Relying on political opponents for a medical diagnosis is silly.
Seventy mental health experts sendng a letter to Trump's doctor. That's meaningful. People who have known Trump personally for years. That's meaningful.
Again, I've said from the outset of this thread, and repeated multiple times, that I believe Trump is losing it. So I don't know who you're arguing with.
STANV said:
nohero said:
Who shows evidence of cognitive decline in this clip, Biden or Fox News?
Context - Biden is out on a bike ride, reporter shouts, "Have you picked a running mate?" Biden says, "Yes" and reporter excitedly asks, "Who?" Watch for answer -
Pretty funny.
Do you think anyone at Fox News sees the irony of the fact that Trump would get a heart attack after riding that bike for 5 minutes?
basil said:
Do you think anyone at Fox News sees the irony of the fact that Trump would get a heart attack after riding that bike for 5 minutes?
I do remember while the other six G7 leaders walked a the hill about a third of a mile, El Lardo had to be transported in a cart.
I still think the point of this thread really misses the point.
Yeah, Biden is a gaffe machine and maybe he's a lost a step or two because he fumbles while talking sometimes. Maybe.
But how can you compare that to the other guy, who is so mentally ill that he has to lie ALL THE TIME. And if he actually believes half the stuff he says, that indicates a divorce from reality so acute that he's pretty much insane.
How do you measure insanity on the scale of "mental acuity"?
Smedley said:
Again, I've said from the outset of this thread, and repeated multiple times, that I believe Trump is losing it. So I don't know who you're arguing with.
How about your pro-trump bias?
How about a big yawn right back at you.
I tell you, I'm getting tired of this dang optimum outage. I do have a pro-cable/internet providers who have their act together bias.
Smedley said:
Again, I've said from the outset of this thread, and repeated multiple times, that I believe Trump is losing it. So I don't know who you're arguing with.
You've said Biden is declining worse than Trump in your subjective opinion. That's what many of us are incredulous over.
In all seriousness, there’s truth here.