2022 Baseball Hall of Fame
As for the Ozzie Smith context, his career dWAR is 44.2. The next closest shortstop is Mark Belanger, at 39.5.
Rolen’s dWAR is 21.2, behind five other third basemen.
jfinnegan said:
Rolen couldn't even hit a HR off Ollie Perez. Endy's glove should be in the HoF.
Endy’s glove should have stayed in Philly a few more seasons.
Just to be clear: I agree Rolen was an excellent all-around player, for a long time, and we haven’t even mentioned his smart, effective, even elite baserunning. Looking at the earlier list, I’m comfortable grouping him on a tier with the likes of Nettles, Gaetti, Wallach, Ventura, Williams and, eventually, probably Longoria and Arenado.
How about Bernie Williams? 4 Gold Gloves in CF(I will keep my opinions to myself), over 2,300 hits, almost a .300 career average and won multiple championships. I still to this day don't understand why the Yanks didn't offer him a deal after he hit .280. I thought he had a couple of good years still left in him. I guess they learned and now they'll give Brett Gardner a deal every year until he decides to retire.
It’s absolutely bananas that guys like Clemens and Bonds aren’t in the hall of fame. Yeah they were on roids, but you would be too if you had to face a roided up Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds.
RobB said:
Yeah they were on roids, but you would be too if you had to face a roided up Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds.
Greg Maddux says, “Wha?”
I have no proof for this, but it had to irritate Bonds when Sosa and McGwire were getting all of the attention and people were acting like they were the best players. He put up video game numbers for a few years.
jfinnegan said:
How about Bernie Williams? 4 Gold Gloves in CF(I will keep my opinions to myself), over 2,300 hits, almost a .300 career average and won multiple championships. I still to this day don't understand why the Yanks didn't offer him a deal after he hit .280. I thought he had a couple of good years still left in him. I guess they learned and now they'll give Brett Gardner a deal every year until he decides to retire.
It will be interesting what happens with Beltran when he's eligible.
ml1 said:
It will be interesting what happens with Beltran when he's eligible.
His worst year was when he knew what pitches were coming. I never understood why some Mets fans didn't like him. I loved watching him. He was one of the few guys that lived up to his contract and then they got Wheeler for him.
jfinnegan said:
ml1 said:
It will be interesting what happens with Beltran when he's eligible.
His worst year was when he knew what pitches were coming. I never understood why some Mets fans didn't like him. I loved watching him. He was one of the few guys that lived up to his contract and then they got Wheeler for him.
IMHO, a lot of the 'FAN caller-type fans did not like him because he never gave them the false hustle a lot of them love. They want guys diving and crashing into things all the time. Beltran didn't dive for balls he knew he wasn't going to catch, and he didn't run into catchers (back when it was legal). While that may have been smart in terms of trying to stay healthy, it didn't endear him to the dude from Woodside who's calling in to the overnight.
and of course, there's the called strike...
jfinnegan said:
Stearns was solid, but Tug was always entertaining. I remember being very upset when they traded Hubie Brooks for Carter and thinking that Fitzgerald was good enough at catcher. I appreciate you not bringing up another deal where the Mets traded a reliever, not to mention Dykstra, for Juan Samuel.
Looking at Dykstra's stats, out of 7 seasons with the Phillies he had one good year and two excellent years. The rest were extremely average or below average. He also was clearly taking steroids and he turned out to be a huge scumbag and now a convicted felon. So good riddance.
yahooyahoo said:
Looking at Dykstra's stats, out of 7 seasons with the Phillies he had one good year and two excellent years. The rest were extremely average or below average.
His steroid use, character and criminality aside, in six of Dykstra’s seven full seasons with the Phillies his OPS+ was 38%, 32%, 22%, 44%, 18% and 14% above league average. (It was 11% below average in the remaining season.) Overall with the Phils, his OPS+ was 22% above league average.
ETA: His cumulative numbers (including WAR) get dinged in three of those seasons because of injuries — yes, a reckless car crash among the causes — and the strike.
DaveSchmidt said:
yahooyahoo said:
Looking at Dykstra's stats, out of 7 seasons with the Phillies he had one good year and two excellent years. The rest were extremely average or below average.
His steroid use, character and criminality aside, in six of Dykstra’s seven full seasons with the Phillies his OPS+ was 38%, 32%, 22%, 44%, 18% and 14% above league average. (It was 11% below average in the remaining season.) Overall with the Phils, his OPS+ was 22% above league average.
ETA: His cumulative numbers (including WAR) get dinged in three of those seasons because of injuries — yes, a reckless car crash among the causes — and the strike.
and according to Ron Darling, Lenny was/is a horrific racist. A terrible trade for Samuel who was a bust but Lenny and NY had run its course.
ml1 said:
jfinnegan said:
ml1 said:
It will be interesting what happens with Beltran when he's eligible.
His worst year was when he knew what pitches were coming. I never understood why some Mets fans didn't like him. I loved watching him. He was one of the few guys that lived up to his contract and then they got Wheeler for him.
IMHO, a lot of the 'FAN caller-type fans did not like him because he never gave them the false hustle a lot of them love. They want guys diving and crashing into things all the time. Beltran didn't dive for balls he knew he wasn't going to catch, and he didn't run into catchers (back when it was legal). While that may have been smart in terms of trying to stay healthy, it didn't endear him to the dude from Woodside who's calling in to the overnight.
and of course, there's the called strike...
his first year on the Mets, he was mediocre which was disappointing following his explosion during the playoffs with the Astros the year before. There was also the fact that he actually wanted to be Yankee, not a Met that bothered fans. The strikeout not swinging was really bad too. Piazza is best remembered for his post 9/11 home run. Beltran is best remembered for the strikeout. Like Buckner is for the error and Dent for the HR and Reggie for the 3 HR’s etc. Beltran was a great player but he never got past the strikeout in the eyes of Mets fans. He also never helped deliver a WS team either.
DaveSchmidt said:
RobB said:
Yeah they were on roids, but you would be too if you had to face a roided up Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds.
Greg Maddux says, “Wha?”
with his stuff, Maddux didn’t need muscle mass to pitch 20 seasons. Clemens did, the Red Sox thought they were moving him Just as he was losing it. Partially, thanks to roids he was able to again obtain over powering dominance. That said, like Bonds he was already a HOF player before the drugs. Too bad both will likely never see the Hall. Two of the best who ever played.
Redfruit said:
A terrible trade for Samuel who was a bust but Lenny and NY had run its course.
Juan Samuel is one of only two major-leaguers to finish his career with at least 390 stolen bases, 160 home runs, 70 triples and 70 HBPs. The other is Barry Bonds.
DaveSchmidt said:
Redfruit said:
A terrible trade for Samuel who was a bust but Lenny and NY had run its course.
Juan Samuel is one of only two major-leaguers to finish his career with at least 390 stolen bases, 160 home runs, 70 triples and 70 HBPs. The other is Barry Bonds.
Samuel was a very good 2B for the Phillies. He was a very, very bad CF for the Mets.
Redfruit said:
DaveSchmidt said:
yahooyahoo said:
Looking at Dykstra's stats, out of 7 seasons with the Phillies he had one good year and two excellent years. The rest were extremely average or below average.
His steroid use, character and criminality aside, in six of Dykstra’s seven full seasons with the Phillies his OPS+ was 38%, 32%, 22%, 44%, 18% and 14% above league average. (It was 11% below average in the remaining season.) Overall with the Phils, his OPS+ was 22% above league average.
ETA: His cumulative numbers (including WAR) get dinged in three of those seasons because of injuries — yes, a reckless car crash among the causes — and the strike.
and according to Ron Darling, Lenny was/is a horrific racist. A terrible trade for Samuel who was a bust but Lenny and NY had run its course.
Lenny had an above average OPS+ all those seasons but he couldn't stay on the field.
1990 = 149 games, 1991 = 63 games, 1992 = 85 games, 1993 = 161 games, 1994 = 84 games, 1995 = 62 games, 1996 = 40 games.
Out of seven full seasons, he only played more than half a season twice.
ml1 said:
Samuel was a very good 2B for the Phillies. He was a very, very bad CF for the Mets.
For the record, I wasn’t serious. Also for the record, Samuel’s bWAR with the Mets, if pro-rated over 162 games, would have been 2.4, the same as centerfielders Gary Pettis and, ahem, Leonard Kyle Dykstra.
yahooyahoo said:
Out of seven full seasons, he only played more than half a season twice.
Already granted. But when he played, he was well above average. (And cut it out with 1994.)
yahooyahoo said:
Redfruit said:
DaveSchmidt said:
yahooyahoo said:
Looking at Dykstra's stats, out of 7 seasons with the Phillies he had one good year and two excellent years. The rest were extremely average or below average.
His steroid use, character and criminality aside, in six of Dykstra’s seven full seasons with the Phillies his OPS+ was 38%, 32%, 22%, 44%, 18% and 14% above league average. (It was 11% below average in the remaining season.) Overall with the Phils, his OPS+ was 22% above league average.
ETA: His cumulative numbers (including WAR) get dinged in three of those seasons because of injuries — yes, a reckless car crash among the causes — and the strike.
and according to Ron Darling, Lenny was/is a horrific racist. A terrible trade for Samuel who was a bust but Lenny and NY had run its course.
Lenny had an above average OPS+ all those seasons but he couldn't stay on the field.
1990 = 149 games, 1991 = 63 games, 1992 = 85 games, 1993 = 161 games, 1994 = 84 games, 1995 = 62 games, 1996 = 40 games.
Out of seven full seasons, he only played more than half a season twice.
Good point. In retrospect, Lenny seemed like he was Ty Cobb to Mets fans with his play as a Phillie because he was good when healthy but Samuel was so bad as Met too. It was a trade that wounded Mets fans. Absolutely tortured Mets fans.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
Samuel was a very good 2B for the Phillies. He was a very, very bad CF for the Mets.
For the record, I wasn’t serious. Also for the record, Samuel’s bWAR with the Mets, if pro-rated over 162 games, would have been 2.4, the same as centerfielders Gary Pettis and, ahem, Leonard Kyle Dykstra.
I saw that. I'm not sure how that worked out, given that his OPS as a Met was .599. So as a Met, he didn't get on base much, and he hit for no power. I'm guessing his SBs contributed to his WAR. Because he couldn't have hit his way out of a wet paper bag as a Met.
I also looked up next year's first timers for the HOF ballot. Aside from Beltran it's the weakest field in a while.
ml1 said:
I'm not sure how that worked out, given that his OPS as a Met was .599. So as a Met, he didn't get on base much, and he hit for no power. I'm guessing his SBs contributed to his WAR.
This reinforces two of my takeaways from WAR: It can shed light on a player’s otherwise not-so-scrutable value to a team, and being not sure how it works out its metrics and weighting* (FanGraphs, in contrast to Baseball Reference, gives Samuel a pro-rated WAR of 1.8) keeps it well short of Gospel status.
* Beyond SBs, the baserunning calculation includes first-to-third and second-to-home types of abilities, which may also have weighed in Samuel’s favor.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
I'm not sure how that worked out, given that his OPS as a Met was .599. So as a Met, he didn't get on base much, and he hit for no power. I'm guessing his SBs contributed to his WAR.
This reinforces two of my takeaways from WAR: It can shed light on a player’s otherwise not-so-scrutable value to a team, and being not sure how it works out its metrics and weighting* (FanGraphs, in contrast to Baseball Reference, gives Samuel a pro-rated WAR of 1.8) keeps it well short of Gospel status.
* Beyond SBs, the baserunning calculation includes first-to-third and second-to-home types of abilities, which may also have weighed in Samuel’s favor.
WAR is not precise enough that we should be trying to make the case that a guy with a 3.0 WAR for a season is significantly better than a guy with a 2.2. And like most quantitative measures, it's less worthwhile with small sample sizes. So if we try to extrapolate an 86 game Juan Samuel Mets career to a full season, the metric can get a little wonky. Generally WAR seems to give value to how many bases a guy produces in a season, compared to how many outs he makes. All of which makes sense, until you get to a guy like Samuel who was terrible on a lot of the things baseball fans count, and better on metrics like extra bases taken, that few fans are aware of (at least outside of SB).
in terms of its black box nature, it's not as bad as QB rating in football, which nobody seems to be able to figure out, aside from the fact that throwing interceptions is a really bad thing.
all of that said, the Samuel trade was a disaster for the Mets 
ml1 said:
I'd be OK with most of those guys in the HOF
Respectfully, I wouldn’t.
If they are going to end up voting these guys in shouldn't Kent get in as well? Almost 2,500 hits, 377 HRs, .290 hitter. Did he ever test positive? I know hitting before or after Bonds obviously helped his numbers, but he's up there among the leaders for 2nd baseman in every category. Bill Mazeroski's in and his numbers are nowhere near as good as Kent's.
jfinnegan said:
Bill Mazeroski's in and his numbers are nowhere near as good as Kent's.
Maz, who won eight Gold Gloves and has a career defensive WAR of 24, had to wait 29 years after his last game to be voted in by a Veterans Committee. It may be just a matter of time for Kent, too.
Rolen couldn't even hit a HR off Ollie Perez. Endy's glove should be in the HoF.