11 School Shootings in 24 Days
alterego said:
I find it hard to believe that anyone could make a reasonable argument for allowing the mentally ill to have guns. Can we all at least agree to that?
Actually, the A.C.L.U. successfully did so. The case pertained to using Social Security determination that a person was qualified to receive benefits, based on mental illness, as a basis to declare the person as actually being mentally ill.
The courts ruled that S.S. determination cannot be used to disqualify people for rights that are restricted, based on mental illness.
It seems many can't agree to that basic suggestion.
Nor does it seems we've passed legislation yet to restrict the use of the bump stop that made it possible to kill so many people in Vegas. Because, you know, someone might really need that bump stop, I guess. Such a small simple step but we can't seem to take it.
My friend from high school lost his 14 year old daughter yesterday. This is closer than any of us think. If you think for one second, this madness won't find your child, you are sadly mistaken. Our children deserve better.
alterego said:
I find it hard to believe that anyone could make a reasonable argument for allowing the mentally ill to have guns. Can we all at least agree to that?
there are some problems with trying to keep firearms out of the hands of people with mental illness. First is that until someone is clinically diagnosed, that person is not known to be mentally ill. Another is -- who decides which diagnoses should disqualify a person from gun ownership? The people who really are dangerous aren't necessarily even mentally ill. Someone with anger issues isn't likely to be diagnosed as having mental illness. Yet a person prone to anger might be the most dangerous person to have a gun in his hands.
The solution is really just to have fewer guns in fewer people's possession, mentally ill or not. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
We could do both. Any diagnosed mental illness (and lets throw in a few more- religious radicalism defined by being on a terror watch list or you're under 21), you don't get a gun. Period.
And also rules to restrict # and types of guns overall.
ml1 said:
there are some problems with trying to keep firearms out of the hands of people with mental illness. First is that until someone is clinically diagnosed, that person is not known to be mentally ill. Another is -- who decides which diagnoses should disqualify a person from gun ownership? The people who really are dangerous aren't necessarily even mentally ill. Someone with anger issues isn't likely to be diagnosed as having mental illness. Yet a person prone to anger might be the most dangerous person to have a gun in his hands.
The solution is really just to have fewer guns in fewer people's possession, mentally ill or not. But that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Outside the US, we observe our gun lobbyists saying 'mental health issues do not mix with gun ownership or use. People with mental health issues should not be blamed for gun violence incidents. They're separate social problems, with separate solutions'.
[that's a paraphrase of lots if different quotes over many years.]
Outside the US, what's getting the most play is that this is the 18th school incident, and it's only mid-February. That children and young adults have such easy access to incredibly deadly weapons and manage to inflict such loss and injury inspite of high-level school security programs other countries don't need.
I know posters on this thread want change. That change apparently can't happen in the face of this domestic warfare seems so totally ridiculous and self-defeating for a modern, civilised nation.
Edited to add a thought: And yet your President want to spend millions of dollars (I read an obscene estimate yesterday) for a military parade celebrating the armaments industry and might of the military machine the world knows are your military forces. No wonder people feel they HAVE to own multiple weapons from a young age.
1) no gun ownership if you are: a) on a terror watch list , b) under 21 or c) have a history of any mental illness
2) No automatic weapons (or similar) available at all to a civilian
3) Longer, more thorough background checks and waiting periods
If you are a person that cannot see the above as logical steps that still protect most of the rights of gun owners, you are complicit.
Overheard at a local coffee shop this morning......."What would happen if an NRA meeting were shot up?"
conandrob240 said:
1) no gun ownership if you are: a) on a terror watch list , b) under 21 or c) have a history of any mental illness
2) No automatic weapons (or similar) available at all to a civilian
3) Longer, more thorough background checks and waiting periods
If you are a person that cannot see the above as logical steps that still protect most of the rights of gun owners, you are complicit.
How about 'No firearms ownership whatsoever, unless you can demonstrate a real need for it'?
ie you might be a farmer who has to protect his/her stock against raiding predators, or that you might have to humanely put an injured animal down; or you might be a member of a shooting club. There might be one or two other reasons, but I can't think of them at the moment.
well, that would be nice but that’s not going to happen in our lifetime do I’ll settle for stricter gun control that any sensible person should have no objection to
conandrob240 said:
well, that would be nice but that’s not going to happen in our lifetime do I’ll settle for stricter gun control that any sensible person should have no objection to
In happened in my lifetime.
You just have to work towards politicians who are prepared stand up against the gun lobby. Yes, I know, simpler said than done. But you have to start somewhere.
marksierra said:
conandrob240 said:
well, that would be nice but that’s not going to happen in our lifetime do I’ll settle for stricter gun control that any sensible person should have no objection to
In happened in my lifetime.
You just have to work towards politicians who are prepared stand up against the gun lobby. Yes, I know, simpler said than done. But you have to start somewhere.
The politicians that control things are not going to stand up to the gun lobby. They are paid by the gun lobby. Many of them have gotten millionS of dollars from the gun lobby for their campaigns.
The focus needs to be on calling this "blood money" while also pointing out that our kids and grand kids, brothers, sisters, cousins, nieces and nephews could be next.
As for the last sentence, I make reference to the gun threat that was spray painted in the C.H.S. school parking lot two days ago.
It’s not where we start on this. We’re not going to get that now and all it will do is dig the nuts further into their stance
I’m glad it worked for your country though. And should be a someday goal for us.
marksierra said:
conandrob240 said:
well, that would be nice but that’s not going to happen in our lifetime do I’ll settle for stricter gun control that any sensible person should have no objection to
In happened in my lifetime.
You just have to work towards politicians who are prepared stand up against the gun lobby. Yes, I know, simpler said than done. But you have to start somewhere.
it took a strong PM who announced ‘enough’ and virtually overnight changed policy after a mass shooting.
In retaliation, our gun lobby set up the Hunters and Shooters Party that have won seats in Parliament to try to win back concessions.
There are many practical steps that needs questioning about the current state of your gun ownership regulations. For example, I believe this young man shot over 150 rounds to kill and injure his victims, then abandoned even more (then implication was ‘much more’) as he fled. Regardless of weapon, how does a teenager get to stockpile so much ammunition at home? (Last I knew, we can’t even keep our ammunition and guns at the same place unless it’s a registered gun club)
peaceinourtime said:
NOW, it's 18 school shootings since the beginning of this year.
I am not disputing the sentiment or position of this thread in any way. But it is still important to be careful with information presented. And the real facts are on your side anyway. The 18 number is an exaggeration that should be dropped and replaced by the still high real number.
A comment newspaper comment that I'll repost:
February 2017, Trump signs legislation that rolls back Obama-era restrictions on selling firearms to the mentally ill.
February 2018, Trump proposes a budget that slashes funding for care of the mentally ill.
February 2018, Trump blames the Parkland school shooting on mental illness.
Republicans applaud and swoon in admiration.
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And so, again, I trot out the usual grim and still shocking statistics about gun ownership in America. You have likely seen it all. Perhaps it is time for Americans to actually see what the slaughter of the innocent looks like. The children in the school yesterday provided just the tip of it on their smart phones. Even a millimeter of detachment to this ongoing horror is too much. The military style, war zone weaponry of today's modern mass shooter lacerates body organs and fractures bones like broken crockery. Those who miraculously "survive" are facing a long road of recovery and likely long-term to permanent disability. To say nothing of the circles of severe emotional trauma and grief that will be endured for some time to come.
Today's quote comes from the NYT's David Leonhardt: "A recent study in the Journal of Health Affairs concluded that the United States has becomes the most dangerous of wealthy nations for a child to be born into."
vox.com: America's Gun Problem Explained
" . . . it's important to grasp not just the stunning statistics about gun ownership and gun violence in the United States, but America's very unique relationship with guns — unlike that of any other developed country — and how it plays out in our politics to ensure, seemingly against all odds, that our culture and laws continue to drive the routine gun violence that marks American life."
https://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america