Tillerson out.


BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her

Do you support her nomination?



tjohn said:



BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/13/gina-haspel-trump-nominee-first-woman-leader-cia/419547002/

John Brennan, a former CIA director, told MSNBC the "very controversial" interrogation program Haspel was connected with was approved by President George W. Bush and deemed lawful by the Justice Department. 

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/politics/gina-haspel-leon-panetta-new-day-cnntv/index.html

There was  a time when "following orders" was not a defense.

Are you saying something about Brennan and Clapper? Are you calling everyone who now supports her a supporter of Nazis? Are you suggesting she's a Nazi?

Try reading just Panettas response, and remember , he who starts talking about Hitler loses the debate.



LOST said:

Another view.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/03/18/rand_paul_will_do_whatever_it_takes_to_block_gina_haspel_and_mike_pompeo.html


"[The president] keeps appointing people around him who loved the Iraq War so much, that they're ready for a war with Iran next. And so I don't think you really want people who are eager for war to be running the State Department. You want a diplomat."

Paul also responded to Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, the daughter of former Vice President Dick Cheney, who tweeted: "Gina Haspel has spent her career defending the American people and homeland. Rand Paul is defending and sympathizing with terrorists"

 "I think the Cheneys, both father and daughter, could spend a lifetime trying to justify the thousands of soldiers, thousands of Iraqis who died in the Iraq War, which was an unnecessary war, made the Middle East less stable, emboldened Iran, and really have been wrong about every foreign policy decision of the last four years," Paul said.  "Until they have proved that they know anything about the world, I think, probably, they ought to just be quiet."


Can you refute the fact that the Intel community is backing her, or do you think Paul knows better who should be in that office?




BCC said:
tjohn said:
BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/13/gina-haspel-trump-nominee-first-woman-leader-cia/419547002/

John Brennan, a former CIA director, told MSNBC the "very controversial" interrogation program Haspel was connected with was approved by President George W. Bush and deemed lawful by the Justice Department. 

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/politics/gina-haspel-leon-panetta-new-day-cnntv/index.html
There was  a time when "following orders" was not a defense.
Are you saying something about Brennan and Clapper? Are you calling everyone who now supports her a supporter of Nazis? Are you suggesting she's a Nazi?

Try reading just Panettas response, and remember , he who starts talking about Hitler loses the debate.

No, I was thinking of training I received in the Army to the effect that I was required to disobey unlawful orders.  An order that violates the Geneva Convention is an unlawful order.  So, if my commanding officer ordered me to shoot or torture prisoners, I was supposed to disobey that order.



BCC said:

Can you refute the fact that the Intel community is backing her, or do you think Paul knows better who should be in that office?

Fact or not, the intel community doesn't get to vote on whether Haspel is appointed, whereas Senator Rand Paul does. 


I'm shocked, shocked to learn that supporting torture isn't a deal breaker for people in the intelligence services!



BCC said:

Can you refute the fact that the Intel community is backing her, or do you think Paul knows better who should be in that office?

Senator Paul gets a vote as authorized by the Constitution. The others are entitled to their opinion but have no say in the decision. 



BCC said:

Try reading just Panettas response, and remember , he who starts talking about Hitler loses the debate.

I've never understood that supposed rule. Hitler is a significant historical figure. And references to him and to Nazism and the Third Reich are very relevant to certain discussions.



dave23 said:



BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her

Do you support her nomination?

I note that this question has not been answered. 



LOST said:



BCC said:


Try reading just Panettas response, and remember , he who starts talking about Hitler loses the debate.

I've never understood that supposed rule. Hitler is a significant historical figure. And references to him and to Nazism and the Third Reich are very relevant to certain discussions.

gosh, why would someone who authorized torture make people think of Hitler?

 cool cheese 


The problem is that as a nation, we have compromised what we stand for so completely, that we now stand for nothing.  Obviously, navigating life requires compromises, but we no longer have any red lines it would seem.

Didn't we punish some little people for abuses at Abu Ghraib?  How can we appoint Haspel to held the CIA under these circumstances?



tjohn said:

The problem is that as a nation, we have compromised what we stand for so completely, that we now stand for nothing.  Obviously, navigating life requires compromises, but we no longer have any red lines it would seem.

Didn't we punish some little people for abuses at Abu Ghraib?  How can we appoint Haspel to held the CIA under these circumstances?

because as a country we now think torture is a good thing.  We're going to start giving medals to the waterboarders.  We love us some torture so much we elected a guy POTUS who campaigned on promising more torture.


It should come as no surprise to anyone who paid minimal attention to the election campaign of 2016 that Donald Trump has a passionate desire to bring back torture. In fact, he campaigned on a platform of committing war crimes of various kinds, occasionally even musing about whether the United States could use nukes against ISIS. He promised to return waterboarding to its rightful place among 21st-century US practices and, as he so eloquently put it, “a hell of a lot worse.” There’s no reason, then, to be shocked that he’s been staffing his administration with people who generally feel the same way 

https://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trump-has-a-passionate-desire-to-bring-back-torture/



ridski said:


Fact or not, the intel community doesn't get to vote on whether Haspel is appointed, whereas Senator Rand Paul does. 

And the intel community is not a single-minded monolith.



ml1 said:


It should come as no surprise to anyone who paid minimal attention to the election campaign of 2016 that Donald Trump has a passionate desire to bring back torture. In fact, he campaigned on a platform of committing war crimes of various kinds, occasionally even musing about whether the United States could use nukes against ISIS. He promised to return waterboarding to its rightful place among 21st-century US practices and, as he so eloquently put it, “a hell of a lot worse.” There’s no reason, then, to be shocked that he’s been staffing his administration with people who generally feel the same way 

https://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trump-has-a-passionate-desire-to-bring-back-torture/

Trump's reptilian brain knows that pandering to fear, anger and hate plays very well to a certain percentage of the electorate.



tjohn said:
Trump's reptilian brain knows that pandering to fear, anger and hate plays very well to a certain percentage of the electorate.

As was the Republican party since the start of the Southern Strategy.



BG9 said:



tjohn said:
Trump's reptilian brain knows that pandering to fear, anger and hate plays very well to a certain percentage of the electorate.

As was the Republican party since the start of the Southern Strategy.

Fear of the black man has played well since the beginning of slavery in the U.S.  



BCC said:

John Brennan, a former CIA director, told MSNBC the "very controversial" interrogation program Haspel was connected with was approved by President George W. Bush and deemed lawful by the Justice Department. 

 Milk, Milk, Lemonade.  ‘Round the corner, fudge is made.  


Which of the above two statements has more meaning?



tjohn said:



BCC said:


tjohn said:


BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/13/gina-haspel-trump-nominee-first-woman-leader-cia/419547002/

John Brennan, a former CIA director, told MSNBC the "very controversial" interrogation program Haspel was connected with was approved by President George W. Bush and deemed lawful by the Justice Department. 

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/http://freebeacon.com/national-security/clapper-trumps-pick-for-cia-director-is-a-tremendous-intelligence-officer/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/politics/gina-haspel-leon-panetta-new-day-cnntv/index.html
There was  a time when "following orders" was not a defense.
Are you saying something about Brennan and Clapper? Are you calling everyone who now supports her a supporter of Nazis? Are you suggesting she's a Nazi?

Try reading just Panettas response, and remember , he who starts talking about Hitler loses the debate.

No, I was thinking of training I received in the Army to the effect that I was required to disobey unlawful orders.  An order that violates the Geneva Convention is an unlawful order.  So, if my commanding officer ordered me to shoot or torture prisoners, I was supposed to disobey that order.

The law in 2002 was that water boarding was authorized It would not have been an illegal order. so that had you chosen to disobey such an order you could have found your a$$ in a sling Geneva or no Geneva. 2002 was a different time.



In the first place none of you can refute the fact that the big guns in the Intel community support her so you try to make believe it is unimportant because they don't vote.. It isn't..

There are Democrats thinking of voting for her and Republicans thinking of voting against her. The support of Brennan, Clapper and Panretta probably will sway more than the single vote of Paul.

Does anyone think those comments from those people will have no impact on Senators sitting on the fence?

In the second place as Panetta pointed out, the situation after 9/11 was different from today and the law then was different from today. We had just been attacked and were fearful of another one. The tactics used at that time were deemed to be legal'



BCC said:

In the first place none of you can refute the fact that the big guns in the Intel community support her so you try to make believe it is unimportant because they don't vote.. It isn't..

Do *you* support her nomination?



BCC said:

No, I was thinking of training I received in the Army to the effect that I was required to disobey unlawful orders.  An order that violates the Geneva Convention is an unlawful order.  So, if my commanding officer ordered me to shoot or torture prisoners, I was supposed to disobey that order.
The law in 2002 was that water boarding was authorized It would not have been an illegal order. so that had you chosen to disobey such an order you could have found your a$$ in a sling Geneva or no Geneva. 2002 was a different time.

Many of us are tested and many are founding wanting when it comes to this sort of thing.  It was torture then and it is torture now.  Most people will hide behind the "following orders defense", but that defense is morally empty.



tjohn said:

Many of us are tested and many are founding wanting when it comes to this sort of thing.  It was torture then and it is torture now.  Most people will hide behind the "following orders defense", but that defense is morally empty.

And 2002 was not so different, given how many people--including Trump, many in his administration, and the CIA nominee--still support torture today.


http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5351:eric-holder-signals-no-prosecutions-of-bush-war-criminals&catid=117:homepage&Itemid=289

Attorney General nominee Eric Holder in written response to a question posed to him during his Senate confirmation hearing by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) stated:

“Prosecutorial and investigative judgments must depend on the facts, and no one is above the law. But where it is clear that a government agent has acted in ‘reasonable and good-faith reliance on Justice Department legal opinions’ authoritatively permitting his conduct, I would find it difficult to justify commencing a full-blown criminal investigation, let alone a prosecution.”



tjohn said:



BCC said:


No, I was thinking of training I received in the Army to the effect that I was required to disobey unlawful orders.  An order that violates the Geneva Convention is an unlawful order.  So, if my commanding officer ordered me to shoot or torture prisoners, I was supposed to disobey that order.
The law in 2002 was that water boarding was authorized It would not have been an illegal order. so that had you chosen to disobey such an order you could have found your a$$ in a sling Geneva or no Geneva. 2002 was a different time.


Many of us are tested and many are founding wanting when it comes to this sort of thing.  It was torture then and it is torture now.  Most people will hide behind the "following orders defense", but that defense is morally empty.

Eric doesn't agree with you



BCC said:

tjohn 

Many of us are tested and many are founding wanting when it comes to this sort of thing.  It was torture then and it is torture now.  Most people will hide behind the "following orders defense", but that defense is morally empty.
Eric doesn't agree with you

That’s undetermined. Tjohn (morality) and Eric (legality) were talking about different things.


Yes, the Obama administration opted to not open that can of worms.



BCC said:

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5351:eric-holder-signals-no-prosecutions-of-bush-war-criminals&catid=117:homepage&Itemid=289

Attorney General nominee Eric Holder in written response to a question posed to him during his Senate confirmation hearing by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ) stated:

“Prosecutorial and investigative judgments must depend on the facts, and no one is above the law. But where it is clear that a government agent has acted in ‘reasonable and good-faith reliance on Justice Department legal opinions’ authoritatively permitting his conduct, I would find it difficult to justify commencing a full-blown criminal investigation, let alone a prosecution.”

We're not talking about prosecuting her.  We're talking about whether she should be in charge of the CIA.

Two different things.


If by "the Intel community" you mean some of the Republicans on the Intelligence Committee, and by "strongly support" you mean "well, but she was just following orders", then you are totally correct

BCC said:

Funny. The experts on MOL condemn and reject Haspel and the Intel community which should be the best source of information strongly support her


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/13/gina-haspel-trump-nominee-first-woman-leader-cia/419547002/


So am I allowed to bring up the Nuremburg Trials?


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