So, the idea of a coup makes you feel icky? Then show us how we vote our way out of this.

drummerboy said:

Really, with scotus and congress in the bag, it's the only way out.

I haven't quite worked out the details yet though.

unfortunately the military and LE are not likely on our side. 

ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

Really, with scotus and congress in the bag, it's the only way out.

I haven't quite worked out the details yet though.

unfortunately the military and LE are not likely on our side. 

well, military leadership might be. at least the ones that they haven't been able to replace. one of the brit papers is reporting that they're resisting action against greenland.

and the troops, fortunately/unfortunately, will mostly just do what they're told.

We need less silly talk and more to-the-point addressing the problem with demonstrations, pressure on lawmakers, support for state and local officials who are pushing back, and effective political action for the November congressional elections.

A military coup would most likely devolve into a civil war. Different factions within the service branches would end up aligning with or against the administration. Even commanding officers who object to Trump’s actions would be hard-pressed to actually give orders to militarily move against the administration. 

And then what happens?  Let’s say there’s a swift coup, the President is taken into custody. Can he be subjected to a trial?  Could the military prosecute him? The Federal courts wouldn’t do it, and the Supreme Court would almost certainly order him to be released and reinstated. 

Who else would be imprisoned? Would you seize Vance as well?  Install Mike Johnson as acting president? Or do the Joint Chiefs rule the country until such time as an election could be held? Assuming they all agree on this action. 

You’d also have to anticipate the actions of different state governments in the face of this. I could see a number of deep red states banding together and declaring themselves the true USA and the rest of the states in rebellion. That gets ugly fast. Maybe Ron DeSantis declares himself temporary president or something. 

And don’t forget the millions of people in this country with military-grade semiautomatic firearms. 

Finally, think about what happens if your coup fails. I think the Insurrection Act would be invoked and we’d be in worse shape than ever. I don’t know if the administration would be able to “postpone” future elections, but they sure as hell could make them a lot less free and fair. Think Federal agents at polling places in blue areas demanding proof of identity. Especially in areas with larger immigrant populations. It would be a tailor-made excuse to put these ICE secret police in charge of “election security”. 

I think the best example of how wrong this could go is what happened when we used the military to remove the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. Violence, chaos and years of military control. Nah, I’m voting “no” on the military coup, thank you. 

nohero said:

We need less silly talk and more to-the-point addressing the problem with demonstrations, pressure on lawmakers, support for state and local officials who are pushing back, and effective political action for the November congressional elections.

are you saying I'm being silly?

why are you so sure there will be even be November elections that approximate what we expect them to be?

drummerboy said:

nohero said:

We need less silly talk and more to-the-point addressing the problem with demonstrations, pressure on lawmakers, support for state and local officials who are pushing back, and effective political action for the November congressional elections.

are you saying I'm being silly?

why are you so sure there will be even be November elections that approximate what we expect them to be?

We need less handwringing like that.

nohero said:

drummerboy said:

nohero said:

We need less silly talk and more to-the-point addressing the problem with demonstrations, pressure on lawmakers, support for state and local officials who are pushing back, and effective political action for the November congressional elections.

are you saying I'm being silly?

why are you so sure there will be even be November elections that approximate what we expect them to be?

We need less handwringing like that.

handwringing?

what we need is far less complacency.

every day is worse than yesterday and it will be worse tomorrow.

Ice is invading blue cities with complete impunity.

we might very well invade greenland.

our president is being controlled by utter lunatics like stephen miller.

states are being told/threatened to redistrict.

states are engaging in unprecedented efforts to impede the november vote.

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

and I'm engaging in handwringing??

A general strike is needed. Shut down the economy.

Some sources claim only 3.5% of the population is needed to effectively bring change.

Imagine if we could get 10-20% to strike at the same time.

You know what's worse than an elected president ignoring the law because the other two branches won't hold him accountable? An un-elected junta ignoring the law because they literally just declared that the only law is what can be enforced by their guns.

Trump is running roughshod over the constitution because those able to exercise a check on him have chosen not to. The belief that he will cancel elections -- and be successful in doing so -- is, as of yet, a hypothetical rather than a reality. Constitutional remedies still exist, and so long as they do calls to pre-emptively destroy the constitution in order to save it are a terrible idea IMO.

PVW said:

You know what's worse than an elected president ignoring the law because the other two branches won't hold him accountable? An un-elected junta ignoring the law because they literally just declared that the only law is what can be enforced by their guns.

Trump is running roughshod over the constitution because those able to exercise a check on him have chosen not to. The belief that he will cancel elections -- and be successful in doing so -- is, as of yet, a hypothetical rather than a reality. Constitutional remedies still exist, and so long as they do calls to pre-emptively destroy the constitution in order to save it are a terrible idea IMO.

In other words, be more like Ken Jennings. 
Post by @kenjennings.bsky.social — Bluesky

PVW said:

You know what's worse than an elected president ignoring the law because the other two branches won't hold him accountable? An un-elected junta ignoring the law because they literally just declared that the only law is what can be enforced by their guns.

Trump is running roughshod over the constitution because those able to exercise a check on him have chosen not to. The belief that he will cancel elections -- and be successful in doing so -- is, as of yet, a hypothetical rather than a reality. Constitutional remedies still exist, and so long as they do calls to pre-emptively destroy the constitution in order to save it are a terrible idea IMO.

please note I said nothing about cancelling elections. you certainly don't need to cancel an election to make sure that your side is unfairly favored over the other. and across the country maga is whittling away at voting rights, making it increasingly harder to vote, state by state. each whittle may do no more than affect a few thousand votes, but in a closely divided nation, and enough whittles, you can do an awful lot.

and while you have arranged two sentences in your first paragraph, they prove nothing.

our constitution, as you are well aware, require it be executed by people of good faith. without that, "remedies" do nothing. we have no guardrails. we have polite suggestions.

Well, as of right now the officeholders in the executive, legislative, and judicial branches are all there via legitimate, legal, constitutional means. You're calling to jump straight into some kind of post-constitutional chaos you hope will work out before we've even exhausted the normal, constitutional remedies available.

nohero said:

PVW said:

You know what's worse than an elected president ignoring the law because the other two branches won't hold him accountable? An un-elected junta ignoring the law because they literally just declared that the only law is what can be enforced by their guns.

Trump is running roughshod over the constitution because those able to exercise a check on him have chosen not to. The belief that he will cancel elections -- and be successful in doing so -- is, as of yet, a hypothetical rather than a reality. Constitutional remedies still exist, and so long as they do calls to pre-emptively destroy the constitution in order to save it are a terrible idea IMO.

In other words, be more like Ken Jennings. 
Post by @kenjennings.bsky.social — Bluesky

yet again, I really have to point out that I said nothing about cancelling elections. the fact that I'm being strawmanned like this indicates a possible weakness in your positions.

if I meant cancellation, I would have clearly said so. instead I constructed a fairly tortured sentence implying that the 2026 election will be unlike any election in our recent past.

unless the arc of justice drastically reverses course, as it stands right now I have no doubt that ice will be deployed strategically for this purpose.

> Really, with scotus and congress in the bag, it's the only way out.

So the remedy is to not have them in the bag. And the mechanism for that is elections. If you aren't saying that this is no longer possible, then I must be misunderstanding your position.

drummerboy said:

the fact that I'm being strawmanned like this indicates a possible weakness in your positions.

With all due respect, that's a cr*p argument, which you know, and it's the type of argument made by the "Give Putin What He Wants" voice.

yahooyahoo said:

A general strike is needed. Shut down the economy.

Some sources claim only 3.5% of the population is needed to effectively bring change.

Imagine if we could get 10-20% to strike at the same time.

l've been thinking of something similar for a few weeks. 

I haven't figured out particular businesses to target although the oil industry came to mind, if there was a mass boycott it could effect the Trump economy. If people simply spent money on essentials for a designated period to show strength and solidarity it might force certain businesses to put pressure on this administration.

Nothing new in my thinking, boycott has been used in peaceful resistance from Ghandi to King.

I proposed one many years ago on this forum and I fondly remember our old friend Author cautioning me, that there could be innocent victims working in certain businesses.

Still, someone with a firmer grasp of U.S. economics might come up with a plan.

Warren? Bernie?

db, if you're thinking of the likes of Mark Milley, Mark Kelly, and many other principled officers, you might be disappointed in their replacements.  This is a BIG BIG "be careful what you wish for."  

Not to mention what someone said above about being distracted from putting huge effort into the coming elections, as well as whatever new **** comes down in the meantime.

If we're looking for comparative political science/history examples, what DB is arguing for here is basically the role the military has taken in Turkey:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

From the founding of the Turkish Republic until 2016, the Turkish military was very involved in Turkish politics. The army was strongly Kemalist and considered one of its roles to be the ultimate guardian of Atatürk's reforms including secularism, and of cooperation with the Western world generally.

Morganna said:

l've been thinking of something similar for a few weeks. 

I haven't figured out particular businesses to target although the oil industry came to mind, if there was a mass boycott it could effect the Trump economy. If people simply spent money on essentials for a designated period to show strength and solidarity it might force certain businesses to put pressure on this administration.

Nothing new in my thinking, boycott has been used in peaceful resistance from Ghandi to King.

I proposed one many years ago on this forum and I fondly remember our old friend Author cautioning me, that there could be innocent victims working in certain businesses.

Still, someone with a firmer grasp of U.S. economics might come up with a plan.

Warren? Bernie?

I did hear an interesting discussion on the radio today about something like that, specifically the corporate partners of ICE. Lots of big companies like UPS and FedEx provide logistical support. And Amazon hosts their data (yet another reason I’ve grown to detest that company).

I’ll have to see if it’s possible to find the comprehensive list. 

mrincredible said:

Morganna said:

l've been thinking of something similar for a few weeks. 

I haven't figured out particular businesses to target although the oil industry came to mind, if there was a mass boycott it could effect the Trump economy. If people simply spent money on essentials for a designated period to show strength and solidarity it might force certain businesses to put pressure on this administration.

Nothing new in my thinking, boycott has been used in peaceful resistance from Ghandi to King.

I proposed one many years ago on this forum and I fondly remember our old friend Author cautioning me, that there could be innocent victims working in certain businesses.

Still, someone with a firmer grasp of U.S. economics might come up with a plan.

Warren? Bernie?

I did hear an interesting discussion on the radio today about something like that, specifically the corporate partners of ICE. Lots of big companies like UPS and FedEx provide logistical support. And Amazon hosts their data (yet another reason I’ve grown to detest that company).

I’ll have to see if it’s possible to find the comprehensive list. 

Here is at least a partial list.

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/ice-businesses-boycott-campaign/

nohero said:

drummerboy said:

the fact that I'm being strawmanned like this indicates a possible weakness in your positions.

With all due respect, that's a cr*p argument, which you know, and it's the type of argument made by the "Give Putin What He Wants" voice.

am I or am I not being strawmanned.

since the answer is yes I am, why am I being strawmanned?

people strawman an argument when they got nuthin better.

PVW said:

> Really, with scotus and congress in the bag, it's the only way out.

So the remedy is to not have them in the bag. And the mechanism for that is elections. If you aren't saying that this is no longer possible, then I must be misunderstanding your position.

well, it's not possible within a reasonable time frame. and the longer it takes, the deeper and deeper will be the hole from which we need to recover from.

first off, we'll never (in practical terms) get scotus out of the bag.

secondly, the current dem establishment is not up to the task of effectively fighting back. or even just putting the pieces of the federal government back together. there needs to be an army of AOCs to do that, plus her clone as president, and that ain't coming anytime soon.

even if we gain control of the senate and house in 2026, so what? what do you think that will accomplish? investigations? subpoenas? lol. and the odds are 100 to 1 against them even effecting the most obvious and easiest remedy - impeachment and conviction.

I guess I don't really understand what you expect would happen via military coup. There's no army of AOCs in congress, but you think there might be a literal one that'll take over and... yeah, really not getting your scenario here.

PVW said:

I guess I don't really understand what you expect would happen via military coup. There's no army of AOCs in congress, but you think there might be a literal one that'll take over and... yeah, really not getting your scenario here.

I don't really have a scenario. What I mostly have is fear and desperation and a sense that anything is better than what we have now.

yahooyahoo said:

Here is at least a partial list.

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/ice-businesses-boycott-campaign/

Well, this looks like a good start. I think it needs its own thread. There might be people glancing at All Politics who might be looking for something peaceful but constructive to do.

I heard that South Orange was holding a vigil on Sunday but Sheena didn't mention where it was being held and I couldn't find it online. Did anyone attend?

I keep thinking MLK day will be a good time for a nationwide protest. I'm looking online for any information on upcoming protests.

@drummerboy, watch Maddow tonight, she's encouraging.

Found this on the Indivisible site, to be signed and sent to Congress.

On Wednesday, January 7, Renee Good, an American citizen, was killed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in Minneapolis, Minnesota. This was a direct result of unchecked violence, impunity, and abuse carried out by federal immigration enforcement agencies against members of our communities.

A broad coalition of groups across the country, including Indivisible, is demanding that Congress answer our call to get ICE Out For Good. We can't wait around while ICE and DHS continue to harm more people. Congress MUST use the tools they have to end this lawless violence, and withhold their votes from any bill that would increase ICE's already massive budget.

Our coalition is specifically demanding that Members of Congress oppose any appropriations bill that includes increased funding for ICE or Border Patrol, and refuse to vote for any funding bill for DHS unless it:

• Strengthens restrictions on ICE and Border Patrol’s ability to conduct dragnet arrest operations and target people based on their race, language or accent, place of employment, or location at the time of the apprehension;
• Ends Border Patrol deployment to our cities and rejects its ever-expanding mandate in immigration enforcement; and
• Limits DHS's reprogramming and transfer authority, including specifically preventing reprogramming and transferring funds for detention.

Use this tool to instantly contact all your members of Congress with a clear message: Protect our communities by reining in ICE NOW.

The email to your Members of Congress:

Dear Representative/Senator:

I urge you to refuse to vote for any appropriations bill for the Department of Homeland Security that fails to rein in ICE and Border Patrol and protect our communities.

The killing of Renee Good on January 7 is a devastating example of what happens when federal immigration enforcement operates without meaningful restrictions. Her death is a result of unchecked violence, impunity, and abuse carried out by federal immigration enforcement agencies that put everyday people at risk. You cannot stand by while ICE continues to harm communities across the country.

As a member of Congress, you have the power to limit the administration's abuse of power by:

• Refusing to vote for any FY2026 appropriations bill that includes increased funding for ICE or Border Patrol, including funds for detention.

• Refusing to vote for any appropriations bill for DHS unless it:
  • Strengthens restrictions on ICE and Border Patrol’s ability to conduct dragnet arrest operations and target people based on their race, language or accent, place of employment, or location at the time of the apprehension;
  • Ends Border Patrol deployment to our cities and rejects its ever-expanding mandate in immigration enforcement; and
  • Limits DHS's reprogramming and transfer authority, including specifically preventing reprogramming and transferring funds for detention.

Every member of Congress must insist on real limits and accountability before any funding is approved. I hope to see you standing up for the safety, dignity, and rights of all people in our communities.

Morganna said:

@drummerboy, watch Maddow tonight, she's encouraging.

i didn't watch the show but did watch part of it where she talked about what she views as an increasing amount of push back in the judiciary. which I'm assuming is what you're referring to, at least in part.

meh - unimpressed and not encouraged

unless and until members of the administration end up in jail, or at least frog marched on TV in handcuffs, they will continue to do as they please. 

and who would be charged with arresting them anyway?

The DOJ.

nuff said

you can't use the law to fight a government that chooses to ignore the law.

apropos the new thread title, you folks are kidding yourselves if you think chuck schumer and hakeem jeffries are equipped to save us.

or that razor thin majorities in the senate and/or house will do a damn thing

same goes for writing your congress critters.

what a quaint notion.

drummerboy said:

apropos the new thread title, you folks are kidding yourselves if you think chuck schumer and hakeem jeffries are equipped to save us.

or that razor thin majorities in the senate and/or house will do a damn thing

same goes for writing your congress critters.

what a quaint notion.

If you think it can't possibly get worse, and so "coup" is an actual answer, you're lacking in imagination.