The Fight for Kherson
PVW said:
nan said:
We already talked about the Wagner group. The Russians hired them to fight. We have no control over that. We have control over how we spend our tax dollars and I don't like them being spent on training Nazis. I don't like that Ukraine citizens celebrate Stephan Bandera and has holidays to honor him. I don't like that they have Nazi units in their military. These are people who live in Ukraine and hold far-right beliefs. Not the same as signing a contract with a company for mercenaries who are going to move on to the next war after you are done, not try to change the laws in your country against ethnic groups.
It does rather undermine Russia's claims that they're partly motivated by fighting neo-nazis when they themselves are funding and arming neo-nazis.
As Ridski notes, nations often (always?) have problematic heroes. In the Eastern European context, specifically, I get the sense that Nan isn't very familiar with the region's history in WWII and afterward, when peoples and states were being crushed by either the Nazi or the Soviets, sometime serially, sometimes simultaneously. And in that context, heroes of national liberation were often aligning themselves with the Germans against the Russians, or the Russians against the Germans. She seems truly baffled by why post-Soviet and post-Communist states may have been so eager to join NATO and the EU, unable to conceive of any motivation beyond American machinations.
Russia itself is actually a great example of this complicated history -- look at how central Putin has sought to make the fight against Germany to Russian national identity, and how he's explicitly tied that history to his current war against Ukraine, and how that's required elevating Stalin, one of history's great moral monsters.
Nan also doesn't seem to have a good understanding of the cultural and legal landscape within Russia if she thinks the force of the state isn't being brought to bear against ethnic groups there. Ask the Chechens, the Tatars, the Dagestanis, or any of the many other ethnic groups within Russia where they fit in Putin's vision of a Russian, Orthodox civilization.
Someone on these threads frequently reminds us to avoid turning the news into Disney fairy tales. That's good advice -- an attempt to grapple with the actual history of the region would be a good start.
Another Stepan Bandera apologist. Shameful.
Russia is not funding Nazis--they have a contract with mercenary group that is known to include Nazis. Do you think there are mercenary groups without Nazis on the payroll? What do you think the career path for Nazis looks like? Working at Starbucks or doing people's taxes? You don't get to legally kill people in those careers and that's what Nazis like to do.
I will remind you that we can't control how Russia staffs their military and it is not paid for with our tax dollars. Over in Ukraine, it is a different story. There the Nazis are Ukraine citizens. There the Nazis can run for office--they are one of the few political parties not banned by Zelensky. They are incorporated in the military. They get medals of honor given to them by Zelensky.
We are spending US taxpayer money to fun and train these Nazis.
I don't approve.
tjohn said:
Ask an Indian what they think of Churchill. You will find it a bit nuanced.
Same for the Irish.
https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/ireland-winston-churchill.amp
Russia is ultranationalist and fascist these days, but Nan is obsessed by a handful of Ukrainian ultranationalists. Interesting world. Ukraine is responsible for the Azov group but Russia isn't responsible for the Wagner Group's behavior.
nan said:
Another Stepan Bandera apologist. Shameful.
Russia is not funding Nazis--they have a contract with mercenary group that is known to include Nazis. Do you think there are mercenary groups without Nazis on the payroll? What do you think the career path for Nazis looks like? Working at Starbucks or doing people's taxes? You don't get to legally kill people in those careers and that's what Nazis like to do.
I will remind you that we can't control how Russia staffs their military and it is not paid for with our tax dollars. Over in Ukraine, it is a different story. There the Nazis are Ukraine citizens. There the Nazis can run for office--they are one of the few political parties not banned by Zelensky. They are incorporated in the military. They get medals of honor given to them by Zelensky.
We are spending US taxpayer money to fun and train these Nazis.
I don't approve.
Context matters.
If we were talking about the dangers of right wing nationalism in western democracies, I absolutely agree that the role of the right in Ukraine, and of Bandera, would be among the examples -- as would, for example, Orban in Hungary, the Law and Justice party in Poland, LePen in France, Farage in the UK, Trumpism in the U.S., etc.
But that's not the context you're bring up Bandera in. You're doing so in the context of Russia's unjust and unjustified attack against Ukraine, and bringing up Bandera as a way to provide cover for Russia's aggression. And in that context, your raising of Bandera is irrelevant at best, and amplifying cynical Russian propaganda at worst.
The best hope for reducing the power of right wing nationalists is the promotion of open, pluralistic societies -- the broadening and deepening of democratic norms, culture, laws, and institutions in established democracies such as the U.S. and western Europe and in new and emerging democracies such as Ukraine.
If one truly cares about the problem of far right extremism, including in places such as Ukraine, one should not be cheering on the advance of autocratic, nationalistic, militaristic regimes such as Putin's.
On the subject of how the US is spending its resources, consider that your preferred policy here -- that the U.S. throw in its lot with Russia to force a capitulation by Ukraine -- would be the U.S. using its resources (resources the exist via taxpayers and citizens like you and I) to support Russia's interests over Ukraine's. So you're wrong to claim that the problem of far-right extremism in Russia isn't a concern regarding how we spend our tax dollars.
nan said:
Ok, I did not have Stepan Bandera apologists on my Bingo card. Now he's comparable to Churchill? This is nonsense.
From 2018:
Wiesenthal Center Harshly Criticizes Decision By Ukranian Parliament To Designate Birthday Of Nazi Collaborator Bandera As National Holiday
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-harshly-4.html
Tell me you don’t have a **** clue what you’re talking about without telling me you don’t have a **** clue what you’re talking about.
Lord Kitchener invented concentration camps and killed over 27,000 Boers in them.
Then in Kenya, Churchill sent 150,000 men, women and children to concentration camps where many were raped, castrated, and tortured.
In Bengal Churchill ordered the diversion of food from Bengalis to British troops and 3 million Bengalis died in the resulting famine. And that’s only half the atrocities he was responsible for.
And you have the nerve to call me an apologist? Nations have problematic heroes, nan.
ridski said:
nan said:
Ok, I did not have Stepan Bandera apologists on my Bingo card. Now he's comparable to Churchill? This is nonsense.
From 2018:
Wiesenthal Center Harshly Criticizes Decision By Ukranian Parliament To Designate Birthday Of Nazi Collaborator Bandera As National Holiday
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-harshly-4.html
Tell me you don’t have a **** clue what you’re talking about without telling me you don’t have a **** clue what you’re talking about.
Lord Kitchener invented concentration camps and killed over 27,000 Boers in them.
Then in Kenya, Churchill sent 150,000 men, women and children to concentration camps where many were raped, castrated, and tortured.
In Bengal Churchill ordered the diversion of food from Bengalis to British troops and 3 million Bengalis died in the resulting famine. And that’s only half the atrocities he was responsible for.
And you have the nerve to call me an apologist? Nations have problematic heroes, nan.
I'm not apologizing for Churchill. I'm fine with him being considered a war criminal. But, he is a big, well known historical figure. Bandera is a cockroach compared to Churchill. He's not even entitled to have a good, fake PR side.
And I'm fine with them both being considered war criminals if you want to do that.
Bottom line, Bandera is not redeemable and trying to say "Oh, he's multi-dimensional like Churchill" is a BS comparison.
tjohn said:
Russia is ultranationalist and fascist these days, but Nan is obsessed by a handful of Ukrainian ultranationalists. Interesting world. Ukraine is responsible for the Azov group but Russia isn't responsible for the Wagner Group's behavior.
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem and the Western media used to cover it until February 2022 after which it evaporated and Democrats started viewing Nazis as heroes.
PVW said:
I guess Nan will be calling for Russia to invade Britain next.
Why would I do that? Britain is destroying their own economy without any help from the Russians.
nan said:
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem and the Western media used to cover it until February 2022 after which it evaporated and Democrats started viewing Nazis as heroes.
I get the sense you don't know much about Russia.
PVW said:
nan said:
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem and the Western media used to cover it until February 2022 after which it evaporated and Democrats started viewing Nazis as heroes.
I get the sense you don't know much about Russia.
I ignore the anything generated by NATO/Atlantic Council/CIA/Mind of Putin Scholars so I am not entirely familiar with the Western Putin/Russia fairy tale.
Just like you don't know much about the origins and purpose of this war in terms of the west.
It's not just critics who say that US policy in Ukraine is to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) August 2, 2022
Here's @LindseyGrahamSC saying that as long as the US arms Ukraine, "they will fight to the last person." And four months in, he says, "I like the structural path we're on here." pic.twitter.com/1fntZG7cjQ
West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections
Western governments and corporations met in Switzerland to plan harsh neoliberal economic policies to impose on post-war Ukraine, calling to cut labor laws, “open markets,” drop tariffs, deregulate industries, and “sell state-owned enterprises to private investors.”
This is the link for the story.
https://multipolarista.com/2022/07/28/west-neoliberal-recovery-conference/
This is the video discussion:
Also this. I am looking into the percentage on this but it's true that these corporations have purchased at least 17 million hectares.
In 2014 Ukraine borrowed 17 Billion from the World Bank (IMF). In return they had to lift the ban on private sector land ownership in the country. Since then Monsanto, BlackRock and Vanguard have purchased over 20 million hectares or 70% of all Ukraine farmland
— Pelham (@Resist_05) August 1, 2022
nan said:
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem and the Western media used to cover it until February 2022 after which it evaporated and Democrats started viewing Nazis as heroes.
And Russia's operation is all about denazification. How many nazis were there at the beginning of the operation and how many are left?
jamie said:
nan said:
Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem and the Western media used to cover it until February 2022 after which it evaporated and Democrats started viewing Nazis as heroes.
And Russia's operation is all about denazification. How many nazis were there at the beginning of the operation and how many are left?
TJohn is getting you those numbers. He says there are more Nazis in Russia than Ukraine so I asked him to provide evidence and let you know.
nan said:
Ok, I did not have Stepan Bandera apologists on my Bingo card. Now he's comparable to Churchill? This is nonsense.
From 2018:
Wiesenthal Center Harshly Criticizes Decision By Ukranian Parliament To Designate Birthday Of Nazi Collaborator Bandera As National Holiday
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-harshly-4.html
I think I understand what DS was saying about your approach to sources. Let's see:
March, 2022, SWC Leads Call for Europe to Take Stronger Actions Against Russia
April, 2022, SWC Hails “Historic and Necessary” United Nations Vote Ousting Russia From UN Human Rights Council
nan said:
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.
Not to mention marriage equality. War Spurs Ukrainian Efforts to Legalize Same-Sex Marriage - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
No wonder Viktor Orban is on your side on this.
nan said:
West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections
PVW said:
nan said:
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.
I'm surprised nan and paul aren't phased at all by the Zwastica. - I never thought I'd see such a symbol for hate in my lifetime. MAGA hats came close, but nothing compared to this movement. This is Vlad's World War Z. Z symbolizes the destruction of Ukraine - people, country and culture.
nan said:
West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections
Western governments and corporations met in Switzerland to plan harsh neoliberal economic policies to impose on post-war Ukraine, calling to cut labor laws, “open markets,” drop tariffs, deregulate industries, and “sell state-owned enterprises to private investors.”
This is the link for the story.
https://multipolarista.com/2022/07/28/west-neoliberal-recovery-conference/
This is the video discussion:
Also this. I am looking into the percentage on this but it's true that these corporations have purchased at least 17 million hectares.
Who exactly is the West. The EU has a rather different view of regulation, worker protections and privatization than does than does the U.S., so when you say the West in this context, it doesn't mean too much.
Meanwhile, I am very concerned about Chinese land purchases in Ukraine.
Very surprised Nan isn't all over this.
tjohn said:
Who exactly is the West. The EU has a rather different view of regulation, worker protections and privatization than does than does the U.S., so when you say the West in this context, it doesn't mean too much.
Meanwhile, I am very concerned about Chinese land purchases in Ukraine.
Very surprised Nan isn't all over this.
China seems to be the biggest winner of Russia's war so far.
It was always clear that China would be the biggest beneficiary of Putin's war. Now, Russia is China's bitch and the West is distracted.
PVW said:
nan said:
Ok, I did not have Stepan Bandera apologists on my Bingo card. Now he's comparable to Churchill? This is nonsense.
From 2018:
Wiesenthal Center Harshly Criticizes Decision By Ukranian Parliament To Designate Birthday Of Nazi Collaborator Bandera As National Holiday
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/wiesenthal-center-harshly-4.html
I think I understand what DS was saying about your approach to sources. Let's see:
March, 2022, SWC Leads Call for Europe to Take Stronger Actions Against Russia
April, 2022, SWC Hails “Historic and Necessary” United Nations Vote Ousting Russia From UN Human Rights Council
We were talking about Ukraine designating Stepan Bandera's birthday as a national holiday. Your links are not related to that.
The vote to oust Russia from the UN Human Rights Council should be seen in light of the fact that the US could not even join that group to begin with. Now of course they are "rejoining." It's all political and not really related to human rights.
Sometimes groups that form for the good end up being compromised by politics such as the OPCW.
nohero said:
Not to mention marriage equality. War Spurs Ukrainian Efforts to Legalize Same-Sex Marriage - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
No wonder Viktor Orban is on your side on this.
nan said:
West prepares to plunder post-war Ukraine with neoliberal shock therapy: privatization, deregulation, slashing worker protections
They don't have marriage equality in Ukraine, even if the New York Times is writing an article to give the woke Dems hope when the war is basically lost.
Not sure how this makes me on Viktor Orban's side. He made some rare and truthful statements about the Ukraine situation. You are trying to say they are not true because he's a jerk and since I agree with him, I must agree with everything Orban says or does.
That's incredibly lame but I guess that's the best you can do.
jamie said:
Nan - did Russia invade Ukraine ?
Just checking
Jamie - This is your weekly reminder that this is a proxy war between Russia and the US.
Also, Russia is winning and, thanks to inhuman US policy, the Ukrainians are being destroyed along with their country.
And yes, the Russians did invade Ukraine after eight years of trying for a diplomatic solution--which was always rejected by the West.
Remember this because it will be cut and pasted over to China-Taiwan.
The neocons never sleep.
jamie said:
PVW said:
nan said:
They are responsible for the people they hire, but there is a difference between hiring a group of transitory mercenaries and having actual Nazis in your community . Russia is not ultranationalist and fascist. They are not phony Democracy and free speech like we are but that description is way over the top.I'm surprised nan and paul aren't phased at all by the Zwastica. - I never thought I'd see such a symbol for hate in my lifetime. MAGA hats came close, but nothing compared to this movement. This is Vlad's World War Z. Z symbolizes the destruction of Ukraine - people, country and culture.
First of all, Wikipedia is a biased source.
Second, it's "a term used by a number of scholars, politicians and publicists"
That means it's made up like the School of the Putin Mindreaders.
Naturally, " but it became more internationally known and more widely described after the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine."
Of course.
"On 23 April 2022, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy stated that a new concept called "Ruscism" will be in history books:[35][36"
Totally unbiased view there.
They put the Z on vehicles so they could be identified in the fog of war.
nan said:
Jamie - This is your weekly reminder that this is a proxy war between Russia and the US.
Also, Russia is winning and, thanks to inhuman US policy, the Ukrainians are being destroyed along with their country.
And yes, the Russians did invade Ukraine after eight years of trying for a diplomatic solution--which was always rejected by the West.
Remember this because it will be cut and pasted over to China-Taiwan.
The neocons never sleep.
It's only a proxy war via propaganda. Which you use on an hourly basis here.
nan said:
First of all, Wikipedia is a biased source.
Second, it's "a term used by a number of scholars, politicians and publicists"
That means it's made up like the School of the Putin Mindreaders.
Naturally, " but it became more internationally known and more widely described after the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine."
Of course.
"On 23 April 2022, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy stated that a new concept called "Ruscism" will be in history books:[35][36"
Totally unbiased view there.
They put the Z on vehicles so they could be identified in the fog of war.
There's a lot more then vehicles they put a Z on - LOL. Love how defend everything Russian - even the 2022 swastika.
At least Wagner is getting more credit these days! Do you at least acknowledge the neo-nazi leaning within their ranks? And the Russia is indeed hiring them?
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I don't see this as anything other than a recognition that one man's hero is another man's war criminal. More than a few of our WW II heroes look good because the Japanese and Germans were behaving so terribly.