The end of Roe. (no more question mark)

KarenMarlowe said:

That was probably the most depressing--although absolutely correct--description of sex and pregnancy, and what I agree with, but not so eloquently. If we are thrust back into state-mandated laws on abortion, can any one state pass a law requiring men to use contraception or be subject to criminal penalty? Haha! Never going to happen. Men are in charge... 

I've been thinking about how this will effect men, boys and their families, consider paternity suits. Many women who considered the financial ramifications often looked to abortion as the best choice. If women, girls, are legally compelled to have a child, paternity suits may be one of the strong options.

We usually think how this will cause problems in families with daughters but when a son is saddled with the burden of support, his life will also be impacted. Add to that married men having affairs and we turn back the clock to the fifties.


Truly opens my eyes to how recent research can be presented in court evidence and in summaries of such evidence:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/08/british-scientist-says-us-anti-abortion-lawyers-misused-his-work-to-attack-roe-v-wade Whether or not a foetus can feel pain before 24 weeks [worth reading]


GoSlugs said:

.

Many Republicans claim that Democrats are pedophiles who work together in networks supporting their perversions.

Which we know to be a lie.

But there is a real network.

The network of abusive Republicans who stick together excusing their behavior. Their anti-choice or forced birth movement which is conferring second class status upon women. The treatment of abused women who dare to speak out and therefore are labeled as liars, opportunists or simply not credible.

And now we have their latest star, Herbster, heartily approved by Trump: 

LINCOLN, Neb. — In the old days, Charles W. Herbster, a cattle baron and bull semen tycoon who used his fortune and influence to get into Donald Trump’s good graces, almost certainly would have been forced to pull out of Nebraska’s Republican primary for governor by now. In recent weeks, eight women, including a state senator, have come forward to allege that Mr. Herbster groped them at various Republican events or at beauty pageants at which he was a judge.

But this is post-shame, post-“Access Hollywood” America, so Mr. Trump traveled to Nebraska last week for a rally at the I-80 Speedway between Lincoln and Omaha to show his continued support for Mr. Herbster. “He is innocent of these despicable charges,” Mr. Trump said. And Mr. Herbster, in true Trump fashion, has not only denied the allegations but also filed a defamation suit against one of his accusers and started running a television ad suggesting that the claims are part of a political conspiracy.

The graphic GoSlugs posted is telling as it is. You're a women, you voted or support Republicans, then you just punched yourself in the face.


joanne said:

Truly opens my eyes to how recent research can be presented in court evidence and in summaries of such evidence:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/08/british-scientist-says-us-anti-abortion-lawyers-misused-his-work-to-attack-roe-v-wade Whether or not a foetus can feel pain before 24 weeks [worth reading]

The thing is many will get one side of the story. Conservative sites and media will report that there is pain. They will not report what the scientist said.

In America's heartland, many "local" newspapers and TV stations are owned by conservative media like Sinclair. They'll report Republican exaggerations and lies but don't expect them to report corrections.


RTrent said:

The network of abusive Republicans who stick together excusing their behavior. Their anti-choice or forced birth movement which is conferring second class status upon women. The treatment of abused women who dare to speak out and therefore are labeled as liars, opportunists or simply not credible.

The "Forced Birth Movement".  This is excellent.  As has been noted everywhere, the "Pro Life" with its penchant for supporting the death penalty is a literal contradiction in terms.  Forced Birth Movement is not only more resonant, it is much more accurate.


can you believe this? she called the cops because of chalk writing on her sidewalk.



meanwhile, this congressclown tries to compare anti-abortion laws to laws protecting the eggs of endangered turtles.



drummerboy said:

meanwhile, this congressclown tries to compare anti-abortion laws to laws protecting the eggs of endangered turtles.

Better keep chickens away from the chalk.


Not sure whether to complain about this in this thread or in the NYT poorly-thought-out-journalism thread, but since i heard it on NPR (don't know about NYT), I'll put it here.

Broadcast yesterday, McConnell lying through his teeth about Roe and WHPA, saying they permit abortion on demand, right up through the ninth month.  Heard it in his own lying voice.  The presenter then said it wasn't true, but the listener is left with the sound-bite impression McConnell would want, even though anyone who's been paying attention in the past 50 years knows that Roe places more restrictions on abortion as the trimesters go on.

These people (McConnell et al.) are totally shameless, and my (somewhat shameful) list of people i would not mind falling down stairs is growing.


mjc said:

These people (McConnell et al.) are totally shameless, and my (somewhat shameful) list of people i would not mind falling down stairs is growing.

If you look at the statistics, a certain number of people are going to fall down the stairs this year.  Better McTurtle than some productive member of society.


Of course, who knows who (or what) his successor would be.


mjc said:

Not sure whether to complain about this in this thread or in the NYT poorly-thought-out-journalism thread, but since i heard it on NPR (don't know about NYT), I'll put it here.

Broadcast yesterday, McConnell lying through his teeth about Roe and WHPA, saying they permit abortion on demand, right up through the ninth month.  Heard it in his own lying voice.  The presenter then said it wasn't true, but the listener is left with the sound-bite impression McConnell would want, even though anyone who's been paying attention in the past 50 years knows that Roe places more restrictions on abortion as the trimesters go on.

These people (McConnell et al.) are totally shameless, and my (somewhat shameful) list of people i would not mind falling down stairs is growing.

I'm always stunned by those claims and also by the fact that so many people do not even know what is in Roe. And certainly know little of the pre Roe history of abortion. HBO has announced The Janes a documentary on the issue. https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/as-roe-v-wade-consumes-americans-hbo-announces-new-abortion-documentary-the-janes-debuting-soon/ar-AAWVmKz?ocid=BingNewsSearch

I knew very little about the trigger laws and how many states had them until Rachel Maddow devoted a few shows to covering them a few years ago. 

Bad time for Maddow to leave her week long show for a solitary Monday appearance.

But strange as it may sound I got an email with a poll asking if I would support Rachel Maddow for a political career. YES!


A year or two ago, I read and enjoyed "The Story of Jane" (by Laura Kaplan, one of the Janes), feeling all reminiscent, thinking how long ago all that was, and how different things are now.  And oops looks like now we're pretty much back then : (  Hopefully new Janes will step up for the new old times.


I got a good laugh this morning reading the New York Times.  Ginny Thomas' husband was whining about protesters outside her house.

Snivel Snivel, Whine Whine

Apparently, he doesn't like having his right to privacy violated. If the History tab on my browser looked like his, I probably wouldn't either.


Felons are not allowed to vote… so they want to make having an abortion a felony?? 


I'm assuming this is real, because nothing surprises me about anti-abortion rhetoric anymore. Not sure why there's a warning. It's just a transcript. Seems misplaced.



Next year, marriage equality and contraception can be next.


Congratulations to the lowlife imbeciles who insisted that there was no difference between Hillary and Trump.


Manchin says he feels betrayed because he believed Kavanaugh and Gorsuck when they said they thought Roe was settled precedent.

Manchin must be even dumber than he looks.  Maybe almost as stupid as Susan Collins.


Do you think they’ll take the vote from women, too?? Or, equal pay, for that matter??


joanne said:

Do you think they’ll take the vote from women, too?? Or, equal pay, for that matter??

When they do, will people just sit by and be content to suffer the tyranny of six justices?

It seems to me that this says something about the future of the United States.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them


sbenois said:

Congratulations to the lowlife imbeciles who insisted that there was no difference between Hillary and Trump.

Nobody is coming to take your contraceptives.


"Nobody is coming to take your contraceptives."

Remains to be seen.  It wasn't a recognized right at the time the Bill of Rights (or 14th? Amendment) was passed, was it?

As a side thought, does anyone ever consider that the reason why some personal or medical issues weren't enumerated as rights, is that no one at the time imagined the government had any business at all opining in those areas?


terp said:

sbenois said:

Congratulations to the lowlife imbeciles who insisted that there was no difference between Hillary and Trump.

Nobody is coming to take your contraceptives.

Not today.


Justice Thomas concurring in today's decision.

"For that reason, in future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell. Because any substantive due process decision is “demonstrably erroneous,” Ramos v. Louisiana, 590 U. S. ___, ___ (2020) (THOMAS, J., concurring in judgment) (slip op., at 7), we have a duty to “correct the error” established in those precedents, Gamble v. United States, 587 U. S. ___, ___ (2019) (THOMAS, J., concurring) (slip op., at 9). After overruling these demonstrably erroneous decisions, the question would remain whether other constitutional provisions guarantee the myriad rights that our substantive due process cases have generated." [Emphasis added]

19-1392 Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization (06/24/2022) (supremecourt.gov) (at p. 3 of Thomas concurrence)

[Edited to add]

Griswold is the contraception case.
Lawrence made it unconstitutional to criminalize homosexuality.
Obergefell is marriage equality.


the reasoning in this decision seems to fly in the face of the 9th:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Thomas seems to think there are "myriad rights" that we've gotten accustomed to, but aren't guaranteed. Who knows where this goes next?


What will happen can be seen now in Texas, due to their SB8 forced birth law -

Many patients we interviewed described feeling hurt and confused when they learned their condition was not exempt from SB8 and they could not receive care in their home state. After receiving fetal diagnoses of spina bifida and trisomy 18, a 39-year-old woman was shocked that her physician would not even inform her about termination options. She said, “When you already have received news like that and can barely function, the thought of then having to do your own investigating to determine where to get this medical care and to arrange going out of state feels additionally overwhelming.”

Clinicians we interviewed recounted a variety of circumstances in which a patient could have received hospital-based abortion care before SB8 but was now denied that care. Patients with a life-limiting fetal diagnosis, such as anencephaly or bilateral renal agenesis, are only being counseled to continue their pregnancy and offered neonatal comfort care options after delivery. All hospitals where our respondents practiced have prohibited multifetal reduction, even though in some cases (e.g., complications of monochorionic twins) failure to perform the procedure could result in the loss of both twins.

Patients with pregnancy complications or preexisting medical conditions that may be exacerbated by pregnancy are being forced to delay an abortion until their conditions become life-threatening and qualify as medical emergencies, or until fetal cardiac activity is no longer detectable. An MFM specialist reported that their hospital no longer offers treatment for ectopic pregnancies implanted in cesarean scars, despite strong recommendations from the Society for Maternal–Fetal Medicine that these life-threatening pregnancies be definitively managed with surgical or medical treatment.    

Some clinicians believe that patients with rupture of membranes before fetal viability are eligible for a medical exemption under SB8, while others believe these patients cannot receive an abortion so long as there is fetal cardiac activity. In multiple cases, the treating clinicians — believing, on the basis of their own or their hospital’s interpretation of the law, that they could not provide early intervention — sent patients home, only to see them return with signs of sepsis. An obstetrician–gynecologist recalled only one patient who was able to obtain an abortion at their hospital under SB8’s maternal health exemption, because her severe cardiac condition had progressed to the point that she was admitted to the intensive care unit. As an MFM specialist summarized, “People have to be on death’s door to qualify for maternal exemptions to SB8.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2207423


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