(Fusion Voting) "New Jersey Centrists Seek to Legalize Their Dream: The Moderate Party"

jimmurphy said:

drummerboy said:

thanks but I just couldn't do it. my eyes started to glaze over.

Doesn’t confirm anything for you.

okie doke

or maybe it was the Times same ol' same ol'

did you think there were any new insights in there? solutions? anything?

let's hear 'em.


drummerboy said:

okie doke

or maybe it was the Times same ol' same ol'

they give an awful lot of weight to Josh Gottheimer, who is a right of center Democrat, to complain about progressives. But NJ-5, his district, is to the right of a lot of the rest of NJ Dems. He doesn't represent the corridor from Jersey City to Trenton. 

That's my beef with the NYT on these issues. They give an awful lot of time for the right leaning Democrats to bash progressives. But what accomplishments are the so-called "moderates" responsible for? Shrinking BBB, stripping the public option from ACA?

On the whole they do a pretty good job themselves of knee capping the party by making their few legislative victories puny. 


I'd love nothing more to read something informative about how Dems can appeal to the "middle", but the fact remains that the middle is largely uninformed and not responsive to issues. That's ok - people can choose to focus on whatever they want. But crafting messages that appeal to these folks as voters is a difficult thing. (Especially when you need to retain your appeal to the base.) They're kind of like a black box. Articles like this pretend that it's just a function of moving towards the "middle" from the left - like you can just turn a knob. And they've been saying it for literally decades.

Maybe they should stop writing the same essays and spend some more time thinking about what the actual problem is.


ml1 said:

they give an awful lot of weight to Josh Gottheimer, who is a right of center Democrat, to complain about progressives. But NJ-5, his district, is to the right of a lot of the rest of NJ Dems. He doesn't represent the corridor from Jersey City to Trenton. 

That's my beef with the NYT on these issues. They give an awful lot of time for the right leaning Democrats to bash progressives. But what accomplishments are the so-called "moderates" responsible for? Shrinking BBB, stripping the public option from ACA?

On the whole they do a pretty good job themselves of knee capping the party by making their few legislative victories puny. 

About the reception I expected. 

Thanks for reading and the response, ml1.


what's everyone doing up so early?


jimmurphy said:

About the reception I expected. 

Thanks for reading and the response, ml1.

do you disagree? 

What would you list as "moderate" accomplishments? What legislation do you think they'd advance?

Most of the article is about "messaging", not substance. And on that I'd agree, if there was an actual means of combating the dishonest framing of Democrats as extremists who hate the police and the military, and spend their time pushing CRT and trans rights and hating on Christians. 

If the framing isn't changeable, isn't it worth a try to pass bigger legislation that improves people's lives? 


If you ask me, the problem is that Dems are TOO moderate. They need to take a battleaxe to the Senate - eliminate the filibuster and completely revamp the Senate rules so that it becomes a functioning part of government and not a means of obstruction. Then they can pass useful stuff that will actually help the working and middle class that the Times piece claims they don't care about.

I just got an email promoting the Times piece, and it's infuriating.

The Democratic Party is now perceived by a growing segment of American voters as espousing the furthest left position possible on many of the country’s most fraught and most divisive issues. “There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Democratic Party has a problem as a toxic brand,” says Max Rose, a moderate New York Democrat who lost re-election to his House seat in Staten Island in 2020 and is running to reclaim the seat this year. “There’s a perception that the party is not on the side of working people, that it’s not on the side of the middle class.”

Really, Max Rose? Did you happen to read the BBB bill?  What's the moderate position on increasing the minimum wage? Child Tax Credit? Labor Reforms? Affordable Housing? Or any of the many provisions in BBB geared specifically to the workers and the middle class.

The eternal question - how does this stuff get by the Times's editors?

There's a reason I started a thread about the Times.


Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 




Smedley said:

Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 

somehow I'm not surprised that you don't see how bad their political reporting is. Probably because you're their target audience.


Smedley said:

Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 

it's not victimhood. It's observation. It's not lazily accepting the conventional wisdom narrative. You might consider trying it. 


drummerboy said:

Smedley said:

Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 

somehow I'm not surprised that you don't see how bad their political reporting is. Probably because you're their target audience.

i may be. I imagine you mean that as a dig, but i see it as a compliment. I think the New York Times is a fine publication.

But I see an easy solution to your conundrum. Why not just stop reading the Times? Stick with media that's more aligned with your worldview. Wonkette and/or Mother Jones perhaps. 


drummerboy said:

what's everyone doing up so early?

I was on a plane from Italy. 


Smedley said:

i may be. I imagine you mean that as a dig, but i see it as a compliment. I think the New York Times is a fine publication.

But I see an easy solution to your conundrum. Why not just stop reading the Times? Stick with media that's more aligned with your worldview. Wonkette and/or Mother Jones perhaps. 

Why not all of them?



drummerboy said:

I'd love nothing more to read something informative about how Dems can appeal to the "middle", but the fact remains that the middle is largely uninformed and not responsive to issues. That's ok - people can choose to focus on whatever they want. But crafting messages that appeal to these folks as voters is a difficult thing. (Especially when you need to retain your appeal to the base.) They're kind of like a black box. Articles like this pretend that it's just a function of moving towards the "middle" from the left - like you can just turn a knob. And they've been saying it for literally decades.

Maybe they should stop writing the same essays and spend some more time thinking about what the actual problem is.

I don't agree that "the middle" is necessarily uninformed people. Many of them are fairly well informed, but don't care that much about most issues. Abortion rights? Yeah, in favor, but if it's outlawed in Texas, don't care. Gun control? Maybe a good idea, but if it doesn't happen, no skin off my nose. LGBTQ rights, sure. But not enough to vote against tax cuts for me.  Universal health coverage? Sounds good, but not if my taxes go up. 


ml1 said:

drummerboy said:

I'd love nothing more to read something informative about how Dems can appeal to the "middle", but the fact remains that the middle is largely uninformed and not responsive to issues. That's ok - people can choose to focus on whatever they want. But crafting messages that appeal to these folks as voters is a difficult thing. (Especially when you need to retain your appeal to the base.) They're kind of like a black box. Articles like this pretend that it's just a function of moving towards the "middle" from the left - like you can just turn a knob. And they've been saying it for literally decades.

Maybe they should stop writing the same essays and spend some more time thinking about what the actual problem is.

I don't agree that "the middle" is necessarily uninformed people. Many of them are fairly well informed, but don't care that much about most issues. Abortion rights? Yeah, in favor, but if it's outlawed in Texas, don't care. Gun control? Maybe a good idea, but if it doesn't happen, no skin off my nose. LGBTQ rights, sure. But not enough to vote against tax cuts for me.  Universal health coverage? Sounds good, but not if my taxes go up. 

I guess "the middle" is kind of a definitional issue. I might have used the wrong term - I was thinking more of "swing voters" I guess. Like Obama/Trump voters.


drummerboy said:

I guess "the middle" is kind of a definitional issue. I might have used the wrong term - I was thinking more of "swing voters" I guess. Like Obama/Trump voters.

fact is, I'll bet the vast majority of voters aren't particularly passionate about most issues. Which is why the anti-abortion voters and the pro- gun voters are so effective. They care. A LOT. About one issue. And it drives their votes. 

For most other people, they get passionate when something affects them directly. Like inflation. 

But if it affects other people, meh. 


ml1 said:

fact is, I'll bet the vast majority of voters aren't particularly passionate about most issues. Which is why the anti-abortion voters and the pro- gun voters are so effective. They care. A LOT. About one issue. And it drives their votes. 

For most other people, they get passionate when something affects them directly. Like inflation. 

But if it affects other people, meh. 

This we can absolutely agree on. And for these people, pocketbook issues and probably crime are the two that will motivate them.


jimmurphy said:

This we can absolutely agree on. And for these people, pocketbook issues and probably crime are the two that will motivate them.

IMHO that's one of the prime aspects of the collective American character. That most people don't care much about anyone outside their own personal circle of family and friends. There's not much sense of us all being in it together, or that we're all better off if everyone is better off. The pandemic certainly brought those attitudes to the foreground. 

It is what it is. And that's one thing I know isn't going to change in my lifetime. If COVID didn't make some people think of their interdependence with others, what would?


ml1 said:

I was on a plane from Italy. 

Had to stop reading to comment.

Why did you come back?

oh oh


From the article about Gottheimer:

“Tell me a problem they’ve solved,” Representative Susan Wild, a Democrat from Pennsylvania, says.

My organization, SOMA Action is supporting Susan Wild's re-election as part of our support for the Dem candidates for Governor and Senator in PA. If interested go to the SOMA Action website


STANV said:

Had to stop reading to comment.

Why did you come back?

oh oh

I didn't. We went to Spain grin


ml1 said:

I didn't. We went to Spain
grin

Fantastic! Hope you had a great time.

Also, if you haven't already, check out Portugal


ml1 said:

Smedley said:

Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 

it's not victimhood. It's observation. It's not lazily accepting the conventional wisdom narrative. You might consider trying it. 

Smedley,

You believe that the Democratic Party is too far left, but I really do not know what you believe with respect to policies. What are your positions on:

Abortion?

Healthcare?

Voting Rights?

Minimum Wages?

The Environment?


STANV said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

Man, progressives have a major victimhood complex with regard to the Old Gray Lady. 

it's not victimhood. It's observation. It's not lazily accepting the conventional wisdom narrative. You might consider trying it. 

Smedley,

You believe that the Democratic Party is too far left, but I really do not know what you believe with respect to policies. What are your positions on:

Abortion?

Healthcare?

Voting Rights?

Minimum Wages?

The Environment?

Here you are. I'm happy to engage with anyone who also answers the questions, but anyone who just snipes and/or nitpicks can bugger off. 

Abortion?

-Pro-choice

Healthcare?

-Public option > M4A

Voting Rights?

-I'm in favor of voting rights - however I also believe not every measure to improve election integrity is automatically evil and racist as the left would have you believe.  

Minimum Wages?

-Should be reasonable with CoLA increases, however the minimum wage should not provide a comfortable living. Should be a starting-point wage that's supplemented with government assistance as necessary. Otherwise it creates too much distortion in labor market and reduces individual incentives. 

The Environment?

-In favor of Paris Accord-type incremental progress. Not in favor of anything that prioritizes addressing climate change at the expense of everything else.   

And you forgot

Gun control?

-I support common-sense gun control such as assault weapons ban, background checks, and closing the gun show loophole. 


looks like the problem solver's caucus are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the name of no new taxes for the wealthy.

How is that a centrist position when higher taxes for the wealthy has huge support from voters? What constituency are they fighting for?

I hate these people.



drummerboy said:

looks like the problem solver's caucus are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the name of no new taxes for the wealthy.

How is that a centrist position when higher taxes for the wealthy has huge support from voters? What constituency are they fighting for?

I hate these people.

It’s not a Centrist position.

It’s a position of a Congressman whose district is very purple and who wants to make political points with some voters in that district.


jimmurphy said:

drummerboy said:

looks like the problem solver's caucus are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in the name of no new taxes for the wealthy.

How is that a centrist position when higher taxes for the wealthy has huge support from voters? What constituency are they fighting for?

I hate these people.

It’s not a Centrist position.

It’s a position of a Congressman whose district is very purple and who wants to make political points with some voters in that district.

yeah but he's a centrist and he's consulting with other centrists about this.

doesn't that make it centrist?

or is he just full of poop, which would be my first guess.


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