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mjc said:
Most of terp's ideas sound good to me, and even workable, BUT they presuppose a well-functioning and well-informed federal government working in consultation and coordination with businesses and other governments. I live in hope of this but am certainly not seeing it right now.
There is an inherent logical flaw in his thinking, which that he wants a well-functioning and well-informed government (as you said) that can centrally define and implement policy. But then at the same time he wants to defund that same government and take away its ability to control policy by slashing regulations.
yup, that's been going on for 40+ years now, and oddly, it still doesn't work.
terp said:
nohero said:
terp said:
nohero said:
What's the word in Massachusetts for "knucklehead"?
Was there gun play?
Not that I know of. Just herd stupidity.
Yep. All the hostility and stupidity is coming from the right wing extremists all right.
With respect to this Massachusetts crowd, their hostility and stupidity comes in the form of right wing extremism, for example: Crowd now chanting “It’s a hoax! It’s a hoax!” followed by speaker saying this is all an effort to crash economy and hurt President Trump’s reelection chances pic.twitter.com/vp1yfTZiNF
some time ago I warned about the "Trump mob" becoming active like this.
this is just the beginning.
ml1 said:
terp said:
The point I'm trying to make is that ml1 made a post saying that there is not tribalism in this county. It's just those people on the other side of the political aisle that are causing all the tribalism! I'm sure if we kept going it would be: Oh ya and the president! And the republicans in Congress! And the libertarians!
I mean this whole thing got started because I made the point that the government went into this in a haphazard way and they didn't really have a way out. And you all jumped on me saying that I would have no ideas. How uniting.
I may be a total hypocrite, but I've got nothing on you.
I thought it was clear I meant there isn't a tribal reaction to the pandemic. And there isn't one, in the typical left-right, Democratic-Republican sense. Overall, almost all Americans agree that the pandemic is something to be concerned about, and the vast majority are in favor of the social distancing rules. And an overwhelming majority don't believe it's time yet to to "open up" the country. The crazy people yelling and protesting, and the people headed to the beaches or weddings or church services truly are an extremist fringe, however you want to describe them.
I stated flat out in my first post that I wasn't making this about Republicans in Congress or otherwise, because most Republicans are being as sensible as everyone else. We're pretty united on the pandemic across party lines, with a fringe being the exception.
I'm not sure how my larger point went sideways except to say it was probably bad writing on my part. I know what I meant, and it certainly wasn't the way you interpreted it.
This is just factually incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to open things back up in smart ways. They are opening Huntington and Laguna Beach in California. And those municipalities threatened legal action against Newsome & and the state. Are they all crazy people? They voted Democratic in the last election, but maybe they woke up saw the Gadsen flag and pronounced their profound selfishness.
ridski said:
terp said:
ridski said:
basil said:
drummerboy said:
there's no "solution" but there are certainly ways of easing the pain, and for easing the transition to opening the economy up again.
We're not doing much of either. Consequently some people are panicking about locking down. And some governors are easing mitigation too soon.
What would the libertarian approach to this be?Libertarians are very good in criticizing others. Less so in running actual things.
Can't run something if it doesn't exist.
Huh. Didn't see that as a criticism of you, more a case of pointing out the obvious.
It's all good. I just think its funny how people ask me what I think. And I tell them.
But the truth is that people here really don't care what I think. If I didn't know better I'd think they only want to deride anyone who thinks differently so they can feel morally superior. The great open liberal mind aand all. I had 2 people who actually responded to the column in a way that wasn't totally hostile, so that's something.
I know a lot of people are afraid. This virus is scary. I do think people need to keep in mind the costs of our current actions. I know people will not agree with this guy, but he points out that periods of extreme unemployment correlate with higher death rates and cites various studies to prove his point. Just another point of view as we seem hyper-focused on just the pandemic.
basil said:
mjc said:
Most of terp's ideas sound good to me, and even workable, BUT they presuppose a well-functioning and well-informed federal government working in consultation and coordination with businesses and other governments. I live in hope of this but am certainly not seeing it right now.
There is an inherent logical flaw in his thinking, which that he wants a well-functioning and well-informed government (as you said) that can centrally define and implement policy. But then at the same time he wants to defund that same government and take away its ability to control policy by slashing regulations.
I was asked what I would do. And I answered the question given the current circumstances. Where in my post did I say anything about defunding the government?
mjc said:
yup, that's been going on for 40+ years now, and oddly, it still doesn't work.
I assume you are referring to Basil's comment about defunding the government. If so, please point out the trend. I've even provided the chart.
terp said:
I was asked what I would do. And I answered the question given the current circumstances. Where in my post did I say anything about defunding the government?
Eh, the primary source of revenue for the government are taxes, so if you lower taxes "as much as humanly possible" you are defunding the government as much as humanly possible.
terp said:
This is just factually incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to open things back up in smart ways. They are opening Huntington and Laguna Beach in California. And those municipalities threatened legal action against Newsome & and the state. Are they all crazy people? They voted Democratic in the last election, but maybe they woke up saw the Gadsen flag and pronounced their profound selfishness.
Look at the specific facts about "opening Huntington and Laguna Beach", and "threatened legal action". The examples of those California municipalities aren't relevant to the points in this thread, about the demonstrators.
terp said:
But the truth is that people here really don't care what I think. If I didn't know better I'd think they only want to deride anyone who thinks differently so they can feel morally superior.
Don't be so defensive. Some posters don't care what anyone else thinks. Ignore them. But disagreeing with you does not mean not caring what you think. Just the opposite.
There are times when you have been quite dismissive of other poster's ideas.
terp said:
This is just factually incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to open things back up in smart ways. They are opening Huntington and Laguna Beach in California. And those municipalities threatened legal action against Newsome & and the state. Are they all crazy people? They voted Democratic in the last election, but maybe they woke up saw the Gadsen flag and pronounced their profound selfishness.
opening up things in smart ways it what everyone wants. Not everyone agrees on that timetable. And yes, that's different than people threatening store clerks who ask them to put on masks, or purposely going to organized protests and purposely standing close and touching each other.
I'm surprised you think those are the same.
Apropos of this discussion, and now a word from our governor - Knucklehead [nuhk-uhl-hed]: A stupid, bumbling, inept person. Example: A person exhibiting aggressive or willfully bad behavior that undermines public health is a knucklehead. pic.twitter.com/vijJxi150f
terp said:
basil said:
mjc said:
Most of terp's ideas sound good to me, and even workable, BUT they presuppose a well-functioning and well-informed federal government working in consultation and coordination with businesses and other governments. I live in hope of this but am certainly not seeing it right now.
There is an inherent logical flaw in his thinking, which that he wants a well-functioning and well-informed government (as you said) that can centrally define and implement policy. But then at the same time he wants to defund that same government and take away its ability to control policy by slashing regulations.
I was asked what I would do. And I answered the question given the current circumstances. Where in my post did I say anything about defunding the government?
your answer as to what to do had pretty much nothing about what we should be doing about the economy right now. Unless I missed it.
You know who I don't see at these protests? Bus drivers. Grocery store clerks. Amazon warehouse workers. Nurses. Doctors. People who are working, right now, putting their lives on the line to keep the country's pilot light on as we try to get through this.
I see plenty of guns and anti-government flags and signs at these protests, but no one standing up for workers demanding safer conditions and pay commensurate with their risk. Quite the opposite -- even as states cautiously try to restart their economies, a lot of these same protestors now are directing their ire against measures like masks and social distancing guidelines.
I see nothing constructive these protestors are bringing to the table, just cruelty, ignorance, and rage.
"opening the economy" right now wouldn't be the solution, and flies in the face of having predictability and stability for businesses. Without testing, there's no way to know if it's too early to relax the social distancing, and there's no way to assure people we won't need to shut everything down again. With that in mind, opening up smartly isn't possible in the near term. Opening up while flying blind is the only thing possible in the near term.
So that said, what are the things that could have been or could be done to lessen the pain? Either emergency funding to businesses contingent on keeping employees on the payroll, or providing UBI directly to people so they can pay their rent and buy food in the near term. Those seem like no-brainers, and it's what some other countries have already pledged to do.
PVW said:
I see nothing constructive these protestors are bringing to the table, just cruelty, ignorance, and rage.
Is it a form of paranoia? One sign called the restrictions a "Dry run for Communism".
ml1 said:
So that said, what are the things that could have been or could be done to lessen the pain? Either emergency funding to businesses contingent on keeping employees on the payroll, or providing UBI directly to people so they can pay their rent and buy food in the near term. Those seem like no-brainers, and it's what some other countries have already pledged to do.
The U.S. government has pledged* $600 a week to unemployed workers through July. That alone covers average wages in all but a dozen states. What are the countries that have committed more?
* I used “pledged,” as you did, because I’m not saying everyone who should be getting this money is getting it yet.
DaveSchmidt said:
ml1 said:
So that said, what are the things that could have been or could be done to lessen the pain? Either emergency funding to businesses contingent on keeping employees on the payroll, or providing UBI directly to people so they can pay their rent and buy food in the near term. Those seem like no-brainers, and it's what some other countries have already pledged to do.
The U.S. government has pledged* $600 a week to unemployed workers through July. That alone covers average wages in all but a dozen states. What are the countries that have committed more?
* I used “pledged,” as you did, because I’m not saying everyone who should be getting this money is getting it yet.
Countering that, states that are pushing forward with re-opening in many cases are putting workers in the position of choosing between losing unemployment or staying safe, as not going back to work is seen as a voluntary quit and so generally making people ineligible for unemployment.
DaveSchmidt said:
The U.S. government has pledged* $600 a week to unemployed workers through July. That alone covers average wages in all but a dozen states. What are the countries that have committed more?
* I used “pledged,” as you did, because I’m not saying everyone who should be getting this money is getting it yet.
it's not UBI, it's unemployment insurance. And as PVW points out, workers in states that "reopen" will lose it and be forced to choose between not going back to their jobs and risking contracting the virus if they do.
terp said: "This is just factually incorrect. There are a lot of people who want to
open things back up in smart ways. They are opening Huntington and
Laguna Beach in California. And those municipalities threatened legal
action against Newsome & and the state. Are they all crazy
people? They voted Democratic in the last election, but maybe they
woke up saw the Gadsen flag and pronounced their profound selfishness."
Not that it's the main point, but in fact Huntington Beach and Laguna both went for Trump in 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_California
There could certainly be smart ways of opening the beaches. Off the top of my head: cutting parking by 50% or more, or just putting a cap on the number of people allowed on the beach (similar to some grocery stores).
I haven't followed this issue and don't know what the actual proposals are, but certainly people can figure out how to "open the economy" in graduated and relatively safe ways. One tiny example: here in Wisconsin, the governor's order originally closed all golf courses. After petition(s) and proposals from golfers, the courses are now open with restrictions: pro shop closed, bars and restaurants closed, payment and tee times online, one person to a cart.... Yelling and waving guns don't improve the situation, but thoughtful compromise can. Hoping for the best.
and when we talk about reopening, this is an important bit of info to consider.
ml1 said:
it's not UBI, it's unemployment insurance. And as PVW points out, workers in states that "reopen" will lose it and be forced to choose between not going back to their jobs and risking contracting the virus if they do.
That’s why I cast it as a pledge.
Again: What countries are pledging more?
Isn't Denmark paying employers to maintain ?80% of wages?
oops, 75%
People get not only $ but a sense that their job is still there. Employers are spared hassles of new hiring. May reduce issues around "laid off" vs. "voluntary quitting." Payouts from the govt are simpler (compared to handing $ through 50+ state UI systems, and/or to individuals via direct deposit or by check "signed" by ...him).
UK is pledging to replace 80% of lost wages, and they also have a funding package for self-employed workers
mjc said:
Isn't Denmark paying employers to maintain ?80% of wages?
oops, 75%
Denmark: Through June 9, as of that article. (Maybe it has been extended; I don’t know.) U.S.: Through July.
Also, the U.S. pay covers gig workers, too. Does Denmark’s?
And that would be one country. Not to put too fine a point on it, but ml1 implied the U.S. was lagging a few.
and I should add that UBI is more of a stimulus than unemployment insurance because it goes to all adults. There are plenty of people who aren't unemployed but who are bringing home less money than they did pre-COVID.
if people want to argue against UBI because it's "free stuff" and they have an argument against it on some sort of logical grounds, that's fine. Make the argument. But as an economic stimulus, UBI (depending of course on how much it is, and how long the program is designed to last), is generally going to put more money back in the economy via working people who need to spend it on necessities than unemployment insurance. Which is probably why our Congress didn't pass it. Both parties are typically tightwads when it comes to grants to working people.
here's a pretty good rundown of benefits in the U.S. and Europe. And the conclusion is:
But the level of support from different countries has varied around the world. The United States is solidly in the middle of the pack, while countries like Germany lead by offering over $5,000 in assistance to freelancers.
Don't know about the gig workers, don't know about other countries, just had heard about Denmark.
otoh, regarding US gig workers, one who called in to a radio show yesterday said that when she *finally* got through to her state UI office, they told her they wouldn't be starting to work out their plan for gig workers till June. So she was expecting no income for at least April and May, probably June too, and was as you might expect pretty worried. I hope it's better in other states, and who knows, maybe her state will get on it sooner than they expect. (Any COBOL people here?)
This is not to put a lot of blame on the state systems. States may not have thought of including benefits systems in their disaster planning (if any).
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Huh. Didn't see that as a criticism of you, more a case of pointing out the obvious.