drummerboy said:

I signed an anti DC petition the other day, but now I'm thinking I should ask to have my signature removed.

The first clue was a post by economist Max Sawicky, whom I've been reading for more than 20 years and who I generally trust.

I ❤️ Our Data Centers

I have not done an in-depth study on this. Somebody ought to. Pay me and I might. It is in my wheelhouse. On its face, the implications are simple and clear. Data centers are good. No, not just good, they are a boon to social welfare. If anybody can offer a better analysis, I’d be all ears. In all the innumerable screeds against DC’s, I have never seen a decent argument. That DCs increase utility rates is not an argument, nor is it even accurate (see below). Even if true, it ignores the benefit side of the equation: the offset to tax revenue and the gains to public spending.

so I started poking around to get more info.  one of the biggest arguments against them involve increased water usage, but that seems to be way overblown and mis-targeted. if you're really concerned about water usage, go after lawns and almond milk production.

what do you guys think?

One question, are they building data centers where rich people live?

How many people does a typical data center employ after it opens?  Not many as I understand.  What tax revenue does it produce (vs additional costs to the community)?  

Steve said:

How many people does a typical data center employ after it opens?  Not many as I understand.  What tax revenue does it produce (vs additional costs to the community)?  

don't know if you read the sawicky link in the op, but he talks about tax revenue and claims that communities come out ahead tax wise. and I don't see why they would cost communities very much in the way of services.  they'd probably use less services than a comparably sized retail space or office building or factory. but he also says that there aren't any detailed studies out there examining the issue. I've not looked in depth yet myself, but we definitely need such studies so we can make decisions based on facts and not vibes.  it seems like the opposition is more vibe based than not.

and yes, you're right about the jobs but so what? not trying to be flip about it, but it's the nature of the business. it would still add to the economy. and certainly there will be workers needed for their construction.

yahooyahoo said:

drummerboy said:

I signed an anti DC petition the other day, but now I'm thinking I should ask to have my signature removed.

The first clue was a post by economist Max Sawicky, whom I've been reading for more than 20 years and who I generally trust.

I ❤️ Our Data Centers

I have not done an in-depth study on this. Somebody ought to. Pay me and I might. It is in my wheelhouse. On its face, the implications are simple and clear. Data centers are good. No, not just good, they are a boon to social welfare. If anybody can offer a better analysis, I’d be all ears. In all the innumerable screeds against DC’s, I have never seen a decent argument. That DCs increase utility rates is not an argument, nor is it even accurate (see below). Even if true, it ignores the benefit side of the equation: the offset to tax revenue and the gains to public spending.

so I started poking around to get more info.  one of the biggest arguments against them involve increased water usage, but that seems to be way overblown and mis-targeted. if you're really concerned about water usage, go after lawns and almond milk production.

what do you guys think?

One question, are they building data centers where rich people live?

do you think they're being built in inappropriate places?

I can believe that many come out net positive in tax revenue, but I doubt it's some huge windfall. If the economics of all this were different and the wealth and productivity gains these data centers enabled were broadly spread out across society, we'd be having a conversation of how to balance overall social good against negative externalities being concentrated in a specific communities, but that's not really the situation, is it? Even before LLMs, data creation, collection, and storage was a huge part of the economy, but its benefits weren't exactly broadly shared. We got lower prices on Amazon, but Jeff Bezos and his billionaire friends were hollowing out journalism, politics, privacy, and social life in general. Now its on overdrive, with LLMs mainly driving up the wealth of a tiny number of individuals who have taken to doing the commencement speech circuit telling grads that yup, AI just might take all of their jobs.

I don't think it's just the literal data centers -- they're a physical manifestation of an increasingly untenable and broken social contract.

PVW said:

I can believe that many come out net positive in tax revenue, but I doubt it's some huge windfall. If the economics of all this were different and the wealth and productivity gains these data centers enabled were broadly spread out across society, we'd be having a conversation of how to balance overall social good against negative externalities being concentrated in a specific communities, but that's not really the situation, is it? Even before LLMs, data creation, collection, and storage was a huge part of the economy, but its benefits weren't exactly broadly shared. We got lower prices on Amazon, but Jeff Bezos and his billionaire friends were hollowing out journalism, politics, privacy, and social life in general. Now its on overdrive, with LLMs mainly driving up the wealth of a tiny number of individuals who have taken to doing the commencement speech circuit telling grads that yup, AI just might take all of their jobs.

I don't think it's just the literal data centers -- they're a physical manifestation of an increasingly untenable and broken social contract.

thank you for letting us know that our capitalist, tech-bro driven economy is leaving people in the dust.

good to know.

what that has to do with the specific issue of whether DC opposition is vibe based or not, I dunno.

Oh, you know what the problem is? Too many people opposed to data centers go to church.

PVW said:

Oh, you know what the problem is? Too many people opposed to data centers go to church.

you're not far off, actually. but it has little to do with "going to church", indicating you still don't get it. going to church is a symptom, not a cause.

the question is how did we get to this sorry economic state of affairs? why did the broad based economic progress we enjoyed into the 70's reverse itself? how were people convinced to vote against their own interests?

you could start with lewis powell and the subsequent supplanting of institutions.

then move on to the evangelicals deciding to throw their political weight around.

and how our first amendment helped all of this along.

https://www.wri.org/insights/us-data-center-growth-impacts

From Energy Use to Air Quality, the Many Ways Data Centers Affect US Communities

Energy prices and water use aren't the only ways data centers affect U.S. communities. We break down the impacts — and how some states are dealing with them.

I believe that there have been instances where water/wastewater demands have outstripped local capacity and the communities have then been forced to improve their water infrastructure to meet said demand. Like with energy, those costs are borne by the local ratepayers.  

Also, the infrastructure improvements are designed for a longer lifespan than a data center. If the data center closes, then the tax revenue goes away. 

yahooyahoo said:

https://www.wri.org/insights/us-data-center-growth-impacts

From Energy Use to Air Quality, the Many Ways Data Centers Affect US Communities

Energy prices and water use aren't the only ways data centers affect U.S. communities. We break down the impacts — and how some states are dealing with them.

before I start commenting on that, have you read it?

Steve said:

I believe that there have been instances where water/wastewater demands have outstripped local capacity and the communities have then been forced to improve their water infrastructure to meet said demand. Like with energy, those costs are borne by the local ratepayers.  

Also, the infrastructure improvements are designed for a longer lifespan than a data center. If the data center closes, then the tax revenue goes away. 

do you have examples? with, like, data?

to be clear here, I'm not saying they shouldn't be regulated, or that communities shouldn't be protected against excessive costs, etc and so on.

as it should be with all major business developments.

I'm just wondering whether this growing anti-DC movement is a knee-jerk response that ties into anti-AI hysteria. the petition I signed was to stop a DC from being built. I signed it without really knowing any details about it because I had bought into the hype myself. and that's not a good thing.

A universal sign that vibes are ahead:

I have not done an in-depth study on this.

Like these vibes:

I’ve found data that indicate that utility rates have moderated over the past decade in Loudoun County (DC’s use both electricity and water).

What data? Indicate but don’t actually show? Moderated how, and from what heights?

Google says DCs provide $700 to $900 billion a year to public county revenue. Total county budget outlays (General Fund) are $2.9 billion, the lion’s share of which is for the schools. You can do the math.

All right, I’ll do the trustworthy economist’s math: $900 billion divided by $2.9 billion means those data centers could fund more than 300 Loudoun Counties.

It’s not the typo that matters, other than as a symptom of sloppiness and not bothering to reread what one has written. It’s that Sawicky took Google’s word — Google’s — for a self-serving figure, when the county’s budget is just a click away. The math there is similar to what Sawicky intended, but his laziness does his credibility no favors.

Here’s a source I trust:

AI Data Centers: Big Tech's Impact on Electric Bills, Water, and More (Consumer Reports)

At a time in history where most of our electricity is still generated by fossil fuels, what's the impact on climate change of an booming industry that uses massive amounts of electricity?

yahooyahoo said:

drummerboy said:

I signed an anti DC petition the other day, but now I'm thinking I should ask to have my signature removed.

The first clue was a post by economist Max Sawicky, whom I've been reading for more than 20 years and who I generally trust.

I ❤️ Our Data Centers

I have not done an in-depth study on this. Somebody ought to. Pay me and I might. It is in my wheelhouse. On its face, the implications are simple and clear. Data centers are good. No, not just good, they are a boon to social welfare. If anybody can offer a better analysis, I’d be all ears. In all the innumerable screeds against DC’s, I have never seen a decent argument. That DCs increase utility rates is not an argument, nor is it even accurate (see below). Even if true, it ignores the benefit side of the equation: the offset to tax revenue and the gains to public spending.

so I started poking around to get more info.  one of the biggest arguments against them involve increased water usage, but that seems to be way overblown and mis-targeted. if you're really concerned about water usage, go after lawns and almond milk production.

what do you guys think?

One question, are they building data centers where rich people live?

One place I think would be perfect for a data center is the former Budweiser brewery on Route 1 in Newark, near Newark Airport. It's a massive industrial building, there's already an extensive electricity infrastructure, and as a former brewery it already has a large connection to the water infrastructure.

But it's not cheap land in the middle of nowhere, so it's probably not on the list for anybody who builds one of these things.

drummerboy said:

yahooyahoo said:

https://www.wri.org/insights/us-data-center-growth-impacts

From Energy Use to Air Quality, the Many Ways Data Centers Affect US Communities

Energy prices and water use aren't the only ways data centers affect U.S. communities. We break down the impacts — and how some states are dealing with them.

before I start commenting on that, have you read it?

Yes

ml1 said:

At a time in history where most of our electricity is still generated by fossil fuels, what's the impact on climate change of an booming industry that uses massive amounts of electricity?

If you’re really concerned about climate change, go after lawn mowers and almond milk refrigeration.

nohero said:

yahooyahoo said:

drummerboy said:

I signed an anti DC petition the other day, but now I'm thinking I should ask to have my signature removed.

The first clue was a post by economist Max Sawicky, whom I've been reading for more than 20 years and who I generally trust.

I ❤️ Our Data Centers

I have not done an in-depth study on this. Somebody ought to. Pay me and I might. It is in my wheelhouse. On its face, the implications are simple and clear. Data centers are good. No, not just good, they are a boon to social welfare. If anybody can offer a better analysis, I’d be all ears. In all the innumerable screeds against DC’s, I have never seen a decent argument. That DCs increase utility rates is not an argument, nor is it even accurate (see below). Even if true, it ignores the benefit side of the equation: the offset to tax revenue and the gains to public spending.

so I started poking around to get more info.  one of the biggest arguments against them involve increased water usage, but that seems to be way overblown and mis-targeted. if you're really concerned about water usage, go after lawns and almond milk production.

what do you guys think?

One question, are they building data centers where rich people live?

One place I think would be perfect for a data center is the former Budweiser brewery on Route 1 in Newark, near Newark Airport. It's a massive industrial building, there's already an extensive electricity infrastructure, and as a former brewery it already has a large connection to the water infrastructure.

But it's not cheap land in the middle of nowhere, so it's probably not on the list for anybody who builds one of these things.

The company that bought it is intending to build a data center in the old New York Daily News print plant footprint by Liberty Science Center, so don't rule it out yet.

ridski said:

The company that bought it is intending to build a data center in the old New York Daily News print plant footprint by Liberty Science Center, so don't rule it out yet.

That’s also prime real estate. I wasn’t aware of those efforts, maybe I’m being too cynical. 

drummerboy said:

Steve said:

I believe that there have been instances where water/wastewater demands have outstripped local capacity and the communities have then been forced to improve their water infrastructure to meet said demand. Like with energy, those costs are borne by the local ratepayers.  

Also, the infrastructure improvements are designed for a longer lifespan than a data center. If the data center closes, then the tax revenue goes away. 

do you have examples? with, like, data?

Maybe read some of this guy's work on the subject.  In terms of tax-breaks vs. jobs, seems that the tax-breaks win more often.

DaveSchmidt said:

If you’re really concerned about climate change, go after lawn mowers and almond milk refrigeration.

and cows. don't forget cows.