Guess we'll never, ever fix our gun problem
I actually have some considerable sympathy for the argument that our society has some sickness that we need to address and that guns are not the fundamental problem.
And the sickness would be what? Our desire to be bad assess like in the Wild, Wild, West? And if we have a so-called "sickness" why wouldn't we lock up the medicine cabinet to protect ourselves from "it"?
kibbegirl said:
And the sickness would be what? Our desire to be bad assess like in the Wild, Wild, West? And if we have a so-called "sickness" why wouldn't we lock up the medicine cabinet to protect ourselves from "it"?
More complicated than that, I suppose. Part of it is certainly our frontier mythology. Part of it is the ongoing erosion of white privilege. Part of it is the loss of jobs and community stability we enjoyed during our manufacturing heyday. Part of it is the ongoing erosion of our power on the world stage as other nations start to realize their potential.
It is beyond me to be able to define our national sickness in five minutes or even five weeks, but I think we are sick as a nation. We have a brilliant future, I believe, if, and only if, we can learn to accept a changing world.
Part of it is an intense, irrational fear that the world is a great danger and one must be armed for "protection" at all times. The Boogeyman takes many forms these days
The Boogeyman, aka The Blacks, aka The Hispanics, aka The Liberals aka The Gays, aka The Jews, aka The Feminists. Did I cover all scariness?
Campaign finance reform would help a lot, and not just on the gun issue.
Red_Barchetta said:
Campaign finance reform would help a lot, and not just on the gun issue.
It won't because the SC said corporations like people can make political expenditures as a first amendment right. Campaign reform can't limit that unless you also change the constitution, which won't happen.
Don't need to change the constitution. Just need a different make up on SCOTUS and re-visit the issue. You could fix gun-control issues the same way.
easier said than done, of course....
I think tjohn, Tarheels, and kibbe pretty much nail it.
Several rich countries with weak gun laws have nowhere near our levels of gun violence.
And I'm not sure laws would help. We're certainly not going to confiscate arms. What's the shelf life of an existing gun? 100 years? 1000?
I think if we regulated guns and shooting as we do cars and driving, that would be a great start. People should need to prove competence. People should carry liability insurance. Licenses should be subject to suspension for infractions
The US is the same country that refused to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. There is no chance for a positive change to the Constitution, and the Second Amendment impinges on meaningful Gun Control. As has been suggested above, we are simply too depraved as a society to make the changes we need to make. In particular, the Ratification Dilemma binds us, as those who are the most depraved are concentrated in the former Confederacy, states would never vote for any rational controls. In fact, these states are going the other direction, as witnessed by Texas' truly apocalyptic new gun laws.
debby said:
I think if we regulated guns and shooting as we do cars and driving, that would be a great start. People should need to prove competence. People should carry liability insurance. Licenses should be subject to suspension for infractions
I like the liability insurance requirement. I imagine that insurance companies would be a lot more discriminating in whom they insure than states are in whom they license.
I'm in no way against guns. There are and can be reasonable, safe gun owners who never seem to have violent incidents. What seems to ail us is keeping ILLEGAL guns off the streets and keeping guns out of the hands of the mental ill. Why can't we have a federally enforced waiting system for intense background checks? Also, I heard on an NPR program that in Canada, divorced couples, divorcing couples and couples in counseling are forbidden from acquiring guns or license for a period of time. Isn't that smart?
GL2 said:
debby said:I like the liability insurance requirement. I imagine that insurance companies would be a lot more discriminating in whom they insure than states are in whom they license.
I think if we regulated guns and shooting as we do cars and driving, that would be a great start. People should need to prove competence. People should carry liability insurance. Licenses should be subject to suspension for infractions
And if improper discharge, or carrying while intoxicated, or failure to properly secure around children, carried points (i.e. hike your premiums) people might be more conscientious. Apparently the risk of children being killed is insufficient.
kibbegirl said:
I'm in no way against guns. There are and can be reasonable, safe gun owners who never seem to have violent incidents. What seems to ail us is keeping ILLEGAL guns off the streets and keeping guns out of the hands of the mental ill. Why can't we have a federally enforced waiting system for intense background checks? Also, I heard on an NPR program that in Canada, divorced couples, divorcing couples and couples in counseling are forbidden from acquiring guns or license for a period of time. Isn't that smart?
That unfortunately would not be enough. There have been to many recent tragedies involving legally obtained guns and we don't have the will orability to successfully enforce the laws we have.
I'm also losing hope. I don't think people are seeing the fact that there are too many guns in the wrong hands. Basically our consensus is that if getting a gun is easy for a responsible, that's OK, even if it means irresponsible people can obtain guns.
debby said:
GL2 said:And if improper discharge, or carrying while intoxicated, or failure to properly secure around children, carried points (i.e. hike your premiums) people might be more conscientious. Apparently the risk of children being killed is insufficient.
debby said:I like the liability insurance requirement. I imagine that insurance companies would be a lot more discriminating in whom they insure than states are in whom they license.
I think if we regulated guns and shooting as we do cars and driving, that would be a great start. People should need to prove competence. People should carry liability insurance. Licenses should be subject to suspension for infractions
Guns don't kill children, silly. People kill children. Right
So if none of the safe guards will work, our only logical solution is to become UK-like. The only difference we'd have is that law enforcement would have guns. But I'm sure, this too would never happen. We'll continue making a cross and whispering a prayer whenever we enter movie theaters, airports, ballgames, planes and other large crowd gatherings. This is nothing but insanity.
You're right. Short of someone on the other side of the fence being killed (Wayne lapierres wife, Clarence Thomas' grandson, Rick perrys daughter), nothing will happen.
OhHenry said:
My sad take on it: A deranged young man walked into a school and brutally slaughted 20 innocent children. It could hardly get worse than this. Our lawmakers don't care about those murdered children or those shattered families. They care more about the money that they get from the NRA and pro-gun PACs that keep them in power, keep them in perks, keep them funded. They will tell you they care, but their actions clearly tell us oherwise. Money wins. Innocent children and adults die. Wackos get their guns. Policians maintain their lifestyles off of our suffering.
It's worse than that. The politicians don't care because their constituents don't care. The NRA isn't holding anyone hostage- if popular will favored gun control we would have it.
True. But the NRA and other anti-government groups have scared people into equating background checks and waiting periods with ATF raids and gun roundups.
tjohn said:
I actually have some considerable sympathy for the argument that our society has some sickness that we need to address and that guns are not the fundamental problem.
Guns are squarely the problem. And it is a sickness
kibbegirl said:
I'm in no way against guns. There are and can be reasonable, safe gun owners who never seem to have violent incidents. What seems to ail us is keeping ILLEGAL guns off the streets and keeping guns out of the hands of the mental ill. Why can't we have a federally enforced waiting system for intense background checks? Also, I heard on an NPR program that in Canada, divorced couples, divorcing couples and couples in counseling are forbidden from acquiring guns or license for a period of time. Isn't that smart?
There are an estimated 280 million guns in the U.S. And about 30,000 people die at the hands of a gun every day. It's a wildly horrible epidemic that everyone ignores. And even guns owned by responsible owners end up in the wrong people's hands. There are very direct correlations between gun ownership rates and gun death.
tjohn said:
kibbegirl said:More complicated than that, I suppose. Part of it is certainly our frontier mythology. Part of it is the ongoing erosion of white privilege. Part of it is the loss of jobs and community stability we enjoyed during our manufacturing heyday. Part of it is the ongoing erosion of our power on the world stage as other nations start to realize their potential.
And the sickness would be what? Our desire to be bad assess like in the Wild, Wild, West? And if we have a so-called "sickness" why wouldn't we lock up the medicine cabinet to protect ourselves from "it"?
It is beyond me to be able to define our national sickness in five minutes or even five weeks, but I think we are sick as a nation. We have a brilliant future, I believe, if, and only if, we can learn to accept a changing world.
The rest of the world is no different. They just don't kill each other and themselves with gunsas often.
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Obama said the number of Americans killed since 9/11 by terrorism was less than 100 while tens of thousands had been killed by gun violence.
Some of worry about border patrol. Before that it was Anthrax. Now it's children not being vaccinated. We want to tackle all the big social issues but we won't tackle the biggest - the amount of guns in our society and how often they are used in domestic violence, mass shootings, street violence, etc. We are VIOLENT. And why is that? Why are some people more afraid of a young black man walking towards them than a man who has a registered assault rifle strapped to his hip?
We'll never do anything about our gun problem because the people who can fix it won't. Maybe if we focused and reported on the lobbyists and politicians who thwart every effort for logical gun control, we'd shame them into making changes. Because these head line grabbing shootings just doesn't seem to register with them.