Freedom of Speech
drummerboy said:
this is your "freedom of speech" concern?
are you serious?
Did you listen to the video? You have no problem with what Germany is doing?
nohero said:
What's the worst that could happen?
So, you approve of what they are doing in Germany?
Germany has decided that past experience suggests an approach to hate speech that is different from that in the United States. From 2021: Germany’s Laws on Antisemitic Hate Speech and Holocaust Denial
[Edited to add] For those who want to read instead of watch a video - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/policing-speech-online-germany-60-minutes-transcript/
nohero said:
Germany has decided that past experience suggests an approach to hate speech that is different from that in the United States. From 2021: Germany’s Laws on Antisemitic Hate Speech and Holocaust Denial
Yes, but the first part of fascism is shutting down free speech. The people of Germany once again have no free speech.
nan said:
drummerboy said:
this is your "freedom of speech" concern?
are you serious?
Did you listen to the video? You have no problem with what Germany is doing?
with what's happening right here I have zero time to worry about Germany.
I honestly couldn't care less.
I mean, are you **** kidding me?
Germany?
What's happening right now, right here, is 10 times worse than your precious twitter files,
Do you not see that?
WTF is wrong with you?
There is always a balance among civil rights, the preservation of the safety and dignity of individuals and unfettered "free speech." In the US we permit an awful lot of threatening and hateful speech in the name of "free speech." Most European countries are more protective of individual civil rights at the expense of complete freedom of speech.
Who are we to tell them their values are inferior to ours?
ml1 said:
There is always a balance among civil rights, the preservation of the safety and dignity of individuals and unfettered "free speech." In the US we permit an awful lot of threatening and hateful speech in the name of "free speech." Most European countries are more protective of individual civil rights at the expense of complete freedom of speech.
Who are we to tell them their values are inferior to ours?
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
yes. I'm OK with Germans deciding for themselves where the limits of speech are.
Why do you think you as a U.S. citizen know better than Germans how they should define this issue?
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
ml1 said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
So, you did not have a problem with teams of police going to people's houses at all hours because they retweeted something "offensive?"
Would you support that happening here?
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
So, you did not have a problem with teams of police going to people's houses at all hours because they retweeted something "offensive?"
Would you support that happening here?
what do you think?
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
So, you did not have a problem with teams of police going to people's houses at all hours because they retweeted something "offensive?"
Would you support that happening here?
why do you care about what's happening in Germany more than what's happening here?
(he asks yet again)
what exactly is wrong with you?
drummerboy said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
So, you did not have a problem with teams of police going to people's houses at all hours because they retweeted something "offensive?"
Would you support that happening here?
why do you care about what's happening in Germany more than what's happening here?
(he asks yet again)
what exactly is wrong with you?
For starters, Germany is supporting Ukraine partly for reasons of "Democracy" which is ironic considering they don't. Second, because that's the model it seemed the Biden administration was heading for here. That was the gold standard--teams of cops showing up at your door.
It's important to see how "Democratic" countries handle censorship because it might be a preview of a coming attraction.
Glenn Greenwald talks to a German based reporter about censorship in Germany.
I think the arguments attacking Germany's concern about dangerous hate speech can be summed up as "Nazi, Schmazi!"
nan said:
drummerboy said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
ml1 said:
nan said:
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:
Did you watch the video? Are you OK with many raids of police officers at all hours of the day and night to arrest and confiscate electronics because someone forwarded a post?
Having expressed your opinion of another country’s laws, as an American you are of course free to fund an NGO in Germany to force a change on the unwitting population there.
I am horrified by Germany's laws, but I acknowledge that they are not the US and we have no right to interfere. What I am concerned about is that we have been on the same path towards these kinds of restrictions. That Germany might be the model and I think the last administration was seeing that as a goal.
So, I am asking everyone to watch and respond to this as a cautionary tale.
And I am appalled by how complacent many seem about this. Not surprised though given the blase reaction to the Twitter files.
we are on the opposite path. Hate speech and lies are emboldened.
The only "censorship" that's beginning is Trump's bullying of media outlets that anger him.
You are focused on all the wrong things.
Did you watch the video? If so, what did you think?
I read the transcript nohero posted. I like to read.
I answered your other question.
So, you did not have a problem with teams of police going to people's houses at all hours because they retweeted something "offensive?"
Would you support that happening here?
why do you care about what's happening in Germany more than what's happening here?
(he asks yet again)
what exactly is wrong with you?
For starters, Germany is supporting Ukraine partly for reasons of "Democracy" which is ironic considering they don't. Second, because that's the model it seemed the Biden administration was heading for here. That was the gold standard--teams of cops showing up at your door.
It's important to see how "Democratic" countries handle censorship because it might be a preview of a coming attraction.
don't worry. The U.S. is almost certain never to pass any legislation to curtail online harassment.
People have come to badly misunderstand what the 1st Amendment says. And they don't understand that not all speech is legally protected.
Somehow many people seem to have been brainwashed into believing "free speech" means you can say or write whatever you please any time, any place, regardless of consequence.
And when the people with the most power, the most money, and the biggest megaphones are pushing that narrative, it's not changing any time soon.
The Germans have fairly recent experience with what can happen when lies and provocations run rampant. Their policies have been intended to head off a repeat. So far so good?
In the US, if you threaten a person with violence, that is assault. Nothing even to do with free speech. However, if you advocate violence against an entire race or group, it's free speech. (But if your name is Guy Fawkes, that may be something entirely different).
Sure, Germans decided to clamp down on hate speech given how things kind of got out of hand there in the past. Norm Macdonald has a good joke about it.
dave said:
In the US, if you threaten a person with violence, that is assault. Nothing even to do with free speech. However, if you advocate violence against an entire race or group, it's free speech. (But if your name is Guy Fawkes, that may be something entirely different).
Sure, Germans decided to clamp down on hate speech given how things kind of got out of hand there in the past. Norm Macdonald has a good joke about it.
"I don't know if you guys are history buffs or not, but ..."
History of free speech in Germany.
Before 1871: Limits on free speech; see 1819 Carlsbad Decrees
German Empire 1871: No insulting the monarch. From start of WWI, censorship by military.
Weimar Republic (1918-1933): Generally free speech, but exceptions for 'indecency' in film or literature.
Nazi Germany: total suppression of opposing viewpoints (what Republicans are onto under Trump's 'enemy of the people' repeated lie)
East Germany (1945-90): LOL
West Germany (1945-90): Under allied forces, a total denazification program. Warranted, perhaps?
Germany 1990 - present: Not-say symbolism and anti-semitic publications and speech closely watched and some publications like Compact shut down. Interior Minister Nancy Faeser: “Our signal is clear: We will not allow who belongs in Germany and who doesn’t to be defined by ethnicity.” Would be violation of 1st amendment in US, but they being a different nation have different laws. Go figure.
ml1 said:
There is always a balance among civil rights, the preservation of the safety and dignity of individuals and unfettered "free speech." In the US we permit an awful lot of threatening and hateful speech in the name of "free speech." Most European countries are more protective of individual civil rights at the expense of complete freedom of speech.
Who are we to tell them their values are inferior to ours?
That is an interesting argument. How does free speech threaten individual civil rights?
terp said:
That is an interesting argument. How does free speech threaten individual civil rights?
the answer to your question is really not very hard.
if you can't figure it out, I'm sure someone will let you know later.
drummerboy said:
terp said:
That is an interesting argument. How does free speech threaten individual civil rights?
the answer to your question is really not very hard.
if you can't figure it out, I'm sure someone will let you know later.
Interesting that you are able to muster this inane response but not an actual response.
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This video has been bothering me and I was not sure where to post it so I opened a new thread. It's from a recent 60 minutes show where they talk about the crack down on internet speech in Germany. They show teams of police invading ordinary people's homes at all hours to arrest them for insulting people on the internet. The people pay big fines, have their electronic devices confiscated and even face jail time. Just for calling someone stupid on the internet.
Seriously, if we lived in Germany everyone on the MOL politics threads would be rounded up and put into a cell (which would probably make a good sitcom, but I digress). The American narrator does not seem that alarmed by this discussion about "online violence." She nods along and does not give enough push back for my view.
I follow politics in Germany some and have been wondering why I don't see more Germans calling Olaf Schultz an idiot on X. Now I have an idea why. They don't have freedom of speech in Germany (and from what I have heard other EU countries are the same). Ursula Van DerLyon has made a big push for "pre-debunking" and seems to be a cheerleader for any kind of censorship.
In discussions about Democrats I have seen a few people comment that there is no problem with freedom of speech being compromised, except by Republicans. But, I have to think that this kind of crackdown was being considered as a model for more places around the world, including the US. The Biden administration sure had programs aimed at curtailing free speech on the internet (mostly by banning users and specific stories). Post-Biden, we are still seeing some of that for specific topics.
So, I'm wondering what people think about this. I would prefer to at least first hear people's reactions to this video, and not just a launch into how "Twitter never censored anyone. . ." which we have already beat to death (and will again, but hopefully not today).