Credit to our Right-Wingnuts
Smedley said:
Or if you agree the chemical munitions can only be tear gas or the equivalent (which to me is the only plausible option), do you (finally) withdraw your unqualified support for the Madison Method?
Both ml1’s position and your point about that Madison Method clause have been clear for pages, but don’t let him escape. You’ve almost got him!
DaveSchmidt said:
Smedley said:
Or if you agree the chemical munitions can only be tear gas or the equivalent (which to me is the only plausible option), do you (finally) withdraw your unqualified support for the Madison Method?
Both ml1’s position and your point about that Madison Method clause have been clear for pages, but don’t let him escape. You’ve almost got him!
no kidding.
But what's clear to you and me may not be clear to everyone else. If I had a lawyer right now he/she would be raising an objection. "Already asked and answered, your honor!"
Canadian Civil Liberties Association ("CCLA") plans to sue Canadian federal government regarding invocation of Emergencies Act. See: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ccla-lawsuit-emergencies-act-1.6355846
Canadian Civil Liberties Association Youtube response regarding Emergencies Act:
OK, it shall remain on the record that ml1 supports the Madison Method in full, despite being firmly against parts of it. (huh?)
As an aside, a very underrated movie lawyer: Ralph Bellamy in Oh, God!
Good weekend all.
ridski said:
mtierney said:
Three border control officers trying to control 12,000 migrants in Del Rio. The officers were doing their jobs, and to control their horses, they use horse reins. They lost their jobs, immediately, after the president saw a photo caption which stated the officers were whipping migrants.
Again, who is lying to you about this?
That really is the problem, isn't it? Too many people like our friend Ms. MTierney are duped by lying political operatives who spread disinformation.
Smedley said:
OK, it shall remain on the record that ml1 supports the Madison Method in full, despite being firmly against parts of it. (huh?)
As an aside, a very underrated movie lawyer: Ralph Bellamy in Oh, God!
Good weekend all.
dude, the record is not what you say it is. People can read the comments for themselves and decide.
nohero said:
That really is the problem, isn't it? Too many people like our friend Ms. MTierney are duped by lying political operatives who spread disinformation.
Duped? Or eagerly closing their eyes and opening their mouths and insisting that what they're chewing isn't... well, you know.
Link to CCLA filing of Application for Judicial Review in Respect of the Proclamation Declaring a Public Order
Emergency: https://ccla.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Emergencies-Act-NOA.pdf
ml1 said:
But some of the military-style tactics being used are actually in violation of generally regarded best practices for police forces. Tear gas, rubber bullets, and especially kettling are known to be provocations that make crowd situations worse.
In contrast:
"With so many moving parts — the presence of children, the possibility of violence, the tightly packed vehicles and combustible fuel — the police have taken a largely restrained approach, even by Canadian standards. Police, some in tactical gear, have continued to leave open exits for demonstrators and drivers who decide to leave."
(WaPo)
IMHO, Ottawa convoy has raised legitimate issues regarding mandates, government overreach and whether invoking the Emergencies Act was appropriate. Which has precipitated CCLA's court filing regarding the Emergencies Act.
Link to Guardian article entitled "Left-leaning people wonder ‘what’s wrong’ with the unvaccinated. But what if their non-compliance isn’t that surprising?": https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/this-is-why-some-people-dont-want-to-get-the-covid-vaccine
RealityForAll said:
IMHO, Ottawa convoy has raised legitimate issues regarding mandates, government overreach and whether invoking the Emergencies Act was appropriate. Which has precipitated CCLA's court filing regarding the Emergencies Act.
Link to Guardian article entitled "Left-leaning people wonder ‘what’s wrong’ with the unvaccinated. But what if their non-compliance isn’t that surprising?": https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/15/this-is-why-some-people-dont-want-to-get-the-covid-vaccine
The specific actions the Canadian government has taken since invoking the Emergencies Act have so far seemed reasonable to me -- using tow trucks to take away vehicles, arresting people, blocking protestors from entering the downtown core, etc. The court filing you posted argues that the Emergency Act was not necessary for this. I don't know the answer to that, though I'm sympathetic to the argument -- I think invocations of extraordinary legal powers should be met with skepticism (though, by the same token, one should be open to having that skepticism overcome).
As far as whether these mandates are an overreach, I do not agree that they are -- I'm generally not sympathetic to the protestor's arguments. I do think that its important to make room for vigorous debate in a free and open society, so I don't have any problem with their decision to protest, but it's important for open societies to strike that balance between debate and the ability of other citizens to go on with their lives. There's an inherent tension here -- a protest that is not at least somewhat disruptive is not an effective one. Hence my interest in following this, as I look at real world examples to help clarify my own thoughts on where these lines should be drawn.
So far, I think Canada has been navigating that line better than the US has. Now that arrests are happening, with the consequent risk of escalation between protestors and authorities, we'll see if that continues.
Using children as shields is irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
I'm surprised child protective services hasn't taken protective custody of them. Or don't they believe in protecting their children? Or is OK because its just politics?
RTrent said:
Using children as shields is irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
I'm surprised child protective services hasn't taken protective custody of them. Or don't they believe in protecting their children? Or is OK because its just politics?
AFAIK, only some members of the convoy protest have included their entire family including children. It is hard to imagine why peaceful protesters should anticipate police violence against themselves or their families. IMHO, threats of involvement of Ontario's Children's Aid Society (similar to Department of Children and Families in NJ) against adult protestors should be an out of bounds tactic. Again, IMHO, peaceful protestors should not be strong-armed by threats to take away children (or hamper parental rights).
PS You are imputing motive to convoy participants with children. Absent proof of their intention, I believe your imputed intention is a reach (especially, in light of the fact that the protestors have been peaceful).
RealityForAll said:
RTrent said:
Using children as shields is irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
I'm surprised child protective services hasn't taken protective custody of them. Or don't they believe in protecting their children? Or is OK because its just politics?
AFAIK, some members of the convoy protest have included their entire family including children. It is hard to imagine why peaceful protesters should anticipate police violence against themselves or their families. IMHO, threats of involvement of Ontario's Children's Aid Society (similar to Department of Children and Families in NJ) against adult protestors should be an out of bounds tactic. Again, IMHO, peaceful protestors should not be strong-armed by threats to take away children (or hamper parental rights).
What threats? Its consequences.
You're OK with parents putting their children at risk? If society doesn't maybe everyone should do this. BLM and antifa protestors bring your children for the family outings. Another Jan 6 protest, lets bring our children this time.
Peaceful? Tell that to the Ottawa residents. Are we now supposed to escape responsibility because some claim peaceful or otherwise OK?
Hey, I let my child alone in my car for only a few minutes. How was I to know someone would jack it? How can I be responsible for what someone else did. I thought it was OK.
RTrent said:
RealityForAll said:
RTrent said:
Using children as shields is irresponsible and possibly dangerous.
I'm surprised child protective services hasn't taken protective custody of them. Or don't they believe in protecting their children? Or is OK because its just politics?
AFAIK, some members of the convoy protest have included their entire family including children. It is hard to imagine why peaceful protesters should anticipate police violence against themselves or their families. IMHO, threats of involvement of Ontario's Children's Aid Society (similar to Department of Children and Families in NJ) against adult protestors should be an out of bounds tactic. Again, IMHO, peaceful protestors should not be strong-armed by threats to take away children (or hamper parental rights).
What threats? Its consequences.
You're OK with parents putting their children at risk? If society doesn't maybe everyone should do this. BLM and antifa protestors bring your children for the family outings. Another Jan 6 protest, lets bring our children this time.
Peaceful? Tell that to the Ottawa residents. Are we now supposed to escape responsibility because some claim peaceful or otherwise OK?
Hey, I let my child alone in my car for only a few minutes. How was I to know someone would jack it? How can I be responsible for what someone else did. I thought it was OK.
What you describe as "consequences*" are directly affected by police tactics. IMHO, Trudeau is so frustrated that he wants to cause a confrontation with the protestors (through provocative policing). And then use the confrontation as a pretext for further levels of police aggression. Citizens have a right to petition their government so that policy decisions may be changed or altered.
I have family in Ottawa. Spoke to these family members today. Convoy has had zero effect on family member's lives. Ottawa family members live about 5 miles from protest site. Folks who live in downtown Ottawa have to expect that protests of Canadian federal policy may occasionally affect their lives.
*- "consequences" are primarily controlled by politicians, police brass and police officers on the street, "Consequences" can be interpreted as a euphemism for instructions to police to use aggressive tactics, or violence against peaceful protestors. IOW, violence does not naturally flow from peaceful protests.
Five miles away from the truckers laying on their horns 24/7…and you wonder why it has annoyed the people who live down town Ottawa. I guess if you live down town you should expect 3 weeks of torment from truckers. Do you know how many Americans are in the protest? The citizens have been begging Trudeau to do something about the noise and craziness, he finally acted. Ridiculous.
terp said:
The left has replaced support for the working class with racial equity and social justice. It looks down on the working class(deplorables) and frankly can no longer relate.
Racial inequity or more precisely Racism is a tool the Ruling Class uses to divide the Working Class. Social Justice empowers the working class.
The right wants to portray itself as having replaced its support for the ruling class with support for the working class but their goal is still to benefit the ruling class by convincing certain sectors of the working class that it is in their interest to be good little serfs as long as they are superior to other groups of serfs.
RealityForAll said:
What you describe as "consequences*" are directly affected by police tactics. IMHO, Trudeau is so frustrated that he wants to cause a confrontation with the protestors (through provocative policing). And then use the confrontation as a pretext for further levels of police aggression. Citizens have a right to petition their government so that policy decisions may be changed or altered.
I have family in Ottawa. Spoke to these family members today. Convoy has had zero effect on family member's lives. Ottawa family members live about 5 miles from protest site. Folks who live in downtown Ottawa have to expect that protests of Canadian federal policy may occasionally affect their lives.
*- "consequences" are primarily controlled by politicians, police brass and police officers on the street, "Consequences" can be interpreted as a euphemism for instructions to police to use aggressive tactics, or violence against peaceful protestors. IOW, violence does not naturally flow from peaceful protests.
Wow. Now, we find you have family in Ottawa. I'm impressed. Not really. I don't give a damn about your family anecdotes.
I'm reminded of appeals to authority or racists who claim they are not racist because they have a black friend.
The fact is there are hundreds of complaints to police by Ottawa residents who were threatened. Also the very many noise complaints that seriously disturbed sleep for over two weeks. The kind of threats where people are screamed at, spit upon, insulted and given Nazi salutes, where people of color wearing masks were told along the lines of "hey, **** go back to where you came from."
So lets not have any crap about citizens right to petition. You'd have to be living in loony land or be in the QANON universe if you think that's what this was.
Trudeau wanted a confrontation? If anything he was too patient, holding off too long. Even the conservative premier Doug Ford said to get a move on.
But that's OK because your family was not inconvenienced.
btw - was climbing on and dancing on Canada's Tomb of the Unknown Soldier also a right to petition government? Maybe next time we have a protest in Washington the same can be done at Arlington Cemetery. Bring the kiddies.
ps - Interesting the effect citizens that were only petitioning had on tow truck drivers per this comment
I would add one point. Without the Emergency Powers, police were
having problems getting tow truck drivers to help get the semis out of
downtown because they feared reprisals from the truckers (interesting
for a "peaceful protest). Now we have sufficient tow trucks/drivers who
are wearing balaclavas and covering up their truck signs because they
are still being threatened.
as much as I have been critical of overzealous policing of demonstrations, I also recognize there is a point at which people engaging in civil disobedience should expect to be removed from the protest site and arrested. non-violent passive civil disobedience has long been a tactic of protest, and often gains sympathy and support for the cause. How many times were Black civil rights protesters arrested? If a protest is impeding other residents ability to go about their lives, at some point it should be expected that there will be police intervention.
I do believe authorities should give protests a lot of leeway, and in fact most of the protesters in Canada did leave peacefully after the government stayed back for days and finally ordered them to leave. While I believe it's a best practice to wait out the protests for an indefinite amount of time, I'd never say the authorities should wait it out forever if it's causing harm to the other residents of the city.
I missed this thread. Speaking from Edmonton, I can tell that the main effect of these protests has been to unite the vast majority of Canadians in their contempt for the protesters.
Some stereotypes are true and Canadians are mostly, kind, polite and restrained but the verbal abuse that I have heard directed against these far right nut jobs over the last few weeks has been beyond the realm of my experience. People here HATE the Flu Trux Klan with a passion. The fact that they have largely been funded by the American Right is gasoline on the fire of that passion. The discovery of military weapons at the Coutts Border Crossing Siege was a real wake up call for a lot of people.
RealityForAll said:
I have family in Ottawa. Spoke to these family members today. Convoy has had zero effect on family member's lives. Ottawa family members live about 5 miles from protest site.
I suppose anything is possible but I don't believe this.
Jaytee said:
Do you know how many Americans are[/were] in the protest?
Please tell us how many Americans (AKA US citizens or US permanent residents) were involved in the Ottawa convoy protest.
GoSlugs said:
RealityForAll said:
I have family in Ottawa. Spoke to these family members today. Convoy has had zero effect on family member's lives. Ottawa family members live about 5 miles from protest site.I suppose anything is possible but I don't believe this.
Sorry to hear that you do not believe me.
Apparently a lot of U.S. persons are involving themselves in the Canadian protests
US small donors help fuel Canadian 'Freedom Convoy,'
GoSlugs said:
People here HATE the Flu Trux Klan with a passion.
The fact that they have largely been funded by the American Right is gasoline on the fire of that passion.
Sounds like you read the DailyKos which also refers to the Ottawa Covoy as the "Flu Trux Klan."
Mediabiasfactcheck.com describes the Dailykos as:: "Overall, we rate the Daily Kos strongly Left Biased based on story selection that almost exclusively favors the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to non-vetted content and a few failed fact check and misleading claims." See: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-kos/
While, ad fones media describes the Dailykos as: Bias, Hyper-Partisan Left, Reliability: Mixed Reliability/Opinion OR Other Issues. See: https://adfontesmedia.com/daily-kos-bias-and-reliability/
==================================================
The left has almost been unanimously opposed to the Ottawa Convoy protest. I believe that Damon Linker of the Week does a good job explaining the general opposition of the left to the Ottawa Convoy protest. An excerpt from Messr. Linker's recent article (URL: https://theweek.com/democrats/1010147/when-protests-arent-progressive) follows:
"The progressive left thinks this is how progress happens — when the powerless, the oppressed, and their allies demand in the streets that the arc of history be bent toward justice, refusing to accept the efforts of the powerful, the rich, and other established powers to resist change. When such protests break out, there is a mighty pull on the left to support and join them — to become part of the solution instead of the problem. The temptation is equally great to extend the benefit of the doubt to those demonstrating, even when they engage in rioting and looting [emphasis added]. Their hearts are in the right place, after all. They're on the right side of history and merely impatient. And really, what's a little property damage in comparison with the egregious violations of justice that infect the system as a whole?
But this isn't at all the way progressives have responded to the trucker protests in Canada and elsewhere. From elected officials to commentators in the media, the tone of the reaction has been closer to outright contempt. And the reason why is obvious: The truckers aren't pursuing progressive aims. They're taking a stand against public health regulations and restrictions imposed by progressive governments, and that has angered the powers that be."
=========================================================
IOW, I believe that you have successfully regurgitated the left's talking points regarding he Ottawa Convoy protest. But you have failed to acknowledge that citizens have a right to petition their government regarding changes to Vax Mandate policy.
===========================================================
Ontario Premier Doug Ford has acknowledged that the boosters lack efficacy. See:
https://www.newsweek.com/ontarios-premier-backs-truckers-says-world-done-covid-mandates-1680066
Excerpt from above linked Newsweek article;
Ontario's premier is siding with truckers protesting vaccine mandates, saying the world is "done" with COVID-19 and that people are ready to move on with their lives [emphasis added].
Premier Doug Ford echoed complaints from the "Freedom Convoy," an organized group of protesters fed up with COVID-19 restrictions and vaccine mandates. The protest began in late January with hundreds of drivers resisting new requirements that truckers get vaccinated against the virus or face possible quarantine or testing.
"There's rabble-rousers, and there are just hardworking people that just don't believe in it, and that's their choice," Ford said to reporters Tuesday. "This is about democracy and freedoms and liberties. I hate as a government telling anyone what to do, we just have to get moving forward, get out of this and protect the jobs."
"Everyone's done with this, like, we are done with it," Ford said. "Let's just start moving on, cautiously. The world's done with it, let's just move forward."
ml1 said:
Apparently a lot of U.S. persons are involving themselves in the Canadian protests
All, or almost all, donations made through GiveSendGO for the benefit of the Ottawa Convoy protest did not reach the truckers. Additionally, sourcing of donations is apparently based on the residence of the donor.
This methodology fails to capture whether the donor is: i.) a Canadian citizen with a US "green card"; ii.) a dual citizen of Canada and the US; or iii.) a Canadian citizen who is illegally in the US. IOW, funds did not reach truckers, and we are not able to assess whether donors with US address have connections to Canada through Canadian citizenship. Thus, this factoid is a red herring.
not for nothing but if all those unvaxxed people would get vaccinated, a lot of the other regulations could be relaxed. Personally I recognize the rights of people in a free country to protest. But I also recognize that refusing to be vaccinated is counterproductive to a goal of relaxed COVID mitigation protocols.
ml1 said:
not for nothing but if all those unvaxxed people would get vaccinated, a lot of the other regulations could be relaxed. Personally I recognize the rights of people in a free country to protest. But I also recognize that refusing to be vaccinated is counterproductive to a goal of relaxed COVID mitigation protocols.
Excerpt of comments of Ontario Premier Doug Ford (https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/we-are-done-with-it-doug-ford-says-ontario-is-moving-on-from-covid-19-1.5782355):
“We are done with it,” Ford said of limits to public activity. “Let’s just start moving on, cautiously. The world’s done with it, let’s just move forward.”
“We just have to be careful, make sure we wash our hands and move forward.”
He suggested there was little value in further rounds of vaccination, pointing out third doses do not provide ironclad protection from infection with Omicron. “We also know that it doesn’t matter if you have one shot or 10 shots, you can still catch COVID-19,” he said. “You see the Prime Minister he has triple shots and I know hundreds of people with three shots, who caught COVID-19, we just need to be careful, always make sure we wash our hands and move forward” [emphasis added].
====================================================
IOW, people can differ on vaccine policy going forward.
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I support best practices and not making crowd situations worse, believe it or not. But sometimes the PD might have to worsen a crowd situation in the present to avert a much worse situation later. Not saying that would always be the right decision -- like anything in life, you can only make the best decision at the time based on the information you have at the time -- but the PD has to have to have some leeway to be proactive.
Going back to the Madison Method, which you cited as a model to emulate. It says police "need to be able to follow legal protocol and utilize chemical munitions to disperse an unlawful assembly that refuses to disperse, after being given lawful commands."
What might be the "chemical munitions" the MM cites, if it's not tear gas or the equivalent?
Or if you agree the chemical munitions can only be tear gas or the equivalent (which to me is the only plausible option), do you (finally) withdraw your unqualified support for the Madison Method?