Cancel Culture

terp said:

emphasis mine.  The email template that was created to request Marquette to rescind her admission mentions her "xenophobic opinions".  Considering there is no evidence of this and they didn't quote any of her social media posts and given the fact that there doesn't seem to be any evidence that she posted any of these opinions online: I think its likely that they assume she holds those positions based on the fact that she supports Trump.

 I don't think that statement was in the original article.  I wouldn't disagree with your interpretation.  Would you say it's unfair or illogical for them to make that assumption?  And in the end, she's still admitted to the school, so I don't see how it's much of an example of someone being "canceled."


terp said:

basil said:

drummerboy said:

one good thing has come out of this. Bari Weiss resigned from the Times. woohoo! Maybe Bret Bedbug will follow.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

I have no idea who she is, so I googled her. It seems the most well-read piece she ever wrote was her resignation letter.

 A while back there was a thread discussing the Evergreen college incident involving Brett Weinstein and everyone seemed to think it was an anecdote and an anomaly and asserting that Weinstein was a racist. Anyways, I pointed put that the corporate press wasn't covering this at all.  The contrary evidence was Bari's opinion piece in the Times.

I had forgotten that story.  In retrospect doesn't it in fact seem like an anomaly unworthy of the attention it received at the time?  It was a story about a professor at one small northwest college and doesn't seem to have been indicative of anything more than that.  If anything it's a great example of Weiss's ability to take an isolated incident and blow it out of proportion to try and make a larger point that it doesn't support.


terp said:

She decided to leave the Cathedral prior to her excommunication. It's clear that you are happy in your perception that someone you disagree with will likely have less clout in certain circles.  That is problematic enough given the context of this thread.  As the point of cancel culture, if such a thing exists, is to repress opinions we don't like and thus control the narrative.  In this way, not only are opinions not discussed, but often entire topics are never brought up.  Some think the Cathedral is constructed specifically to those ends.

If she really thought she was speaking "truth to power", she would have continued until she was actually "excommunicated".  She didn't want to wait for that, and didn't even want to put in the effort to provoke it.  So she "self-excommunicated", with a long epistle to try to get the most attention.  By strange coincidence, Andrew Sullivan also "excommunicated" himself from his latest sinecure.

"Cancel culture" is trending because of these folks declaring, via very visible platforms and wide circulation in the media, "I've been cancelled!"


and being dragged on Twitter after you've written a poorly-reasoned and flimsily supported column isn't being "canceled."  If anything, isn't that how the "marketplace of ideas" is supposed to work?  You write something for a major news outlet, and people point out all the flaws in your argument.  Maybe some of them should be more polite, but if you write garbage columns, you're going to get ratioed.  The solution is to make better argument, not to complain about how mean everyone is on social media.


A paraphrase that sums up the anecdotal Bret Weinstein: My experience illustrates the larger problem of people relying on their experience to illustrate larger problems.


There are a lot of widely-read "I've been cancelled" essays out there lately.  Irony isn't dead, but it's taking a beating this week.


DaveSchmidt said:

Can you imagine a scenario where a Biden-supporting student would apply to Liberty?

 Back in my day many many of us would as a goof. I can even imagine a campaign by the Movement.


nohero said:

ridski said:

terp said:

 I assumed it was because he brought up the war.

 No, it’s because Major Gowen spends some time at the beginning of the show going on about n******* and w*** and THEN says we should never trust the Germans, which Basil agrees to.

 Don't talk about the facts.  That always ruins someone's rant if you do that.

 Major said he hated Germans. He also said he loved women. So Polly asked him about German women. Major replied "Good card players". (BTW I never know Major's name until I read the above.


Now seriously,

The use of terms like "cancel culture" and "political correctness" are used to stifle debate rather than foster it. Instead or arguing with what someone says it's just dismissed as being "politically correct" or representing "Cancel Culture".

Now that I have learned Major's name from this thread I will continue my education by Googling Bari Weiss of whom I have never heard.


So I googled and ended up reading a reprint of her statement in, of all things, the NY Post. It did not make sense to me because while a majority of NY Times columnists skew left, the continue to print Ross Douthat and Brett Stephens, the latter even after his column weeks ago arguing that NYC's response to COVID 19 was not suited for other parts of the country,  for which, as far as I know, he has not apologized.

Then I came upon a reaction to Weiss challenging her for hypocrisy:

Not to channel Nan but

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tho6dRQAMpE


STANV said:

So I googled and ended up reading a reprint of her statement in, of all things, the NY Post. It did not make sense to me because while a majority of NY Times columnists skew left, the continue to print Ross Douthat and Brett Stephens, the latter even after his column weeks ago arguing that NYC's response to COVID 19 was not suited for other parts of the country,  for which, as far as I know, he has not apologized.

Then I came upon a reaction to Weiss challenging her for hypocrisy:

Not to channel Nan but

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tho6dRQAMpE

 Bari Weiss is one of those folks whose work is mediocre at best, but she's had a very successful run by creating a brand that's popular with an array of ideologically diverse people.  She's positioned herself as a nominal liberal who lectures other liberals on what she sees as the hard truths about themselves.  Not surprisingly she's a favorite of Bill Maher, who styles himself similarly.  


ml1 said:

terp said:

emphasis mine.  The email template that was created to request Marquette to rescind her admission mentions her "xenophobic opinions".  Considering there is no evidence of this and they didn't quote any of her social media posts and given the fact that there doesn't seem to be any evidence that she posted any of these opinions online: I think its likely that they assume she holds those positions based on the fact that she supports Trump.

 I don't think that statement was in the original article.  I wouldn't disagree with your interpretation.  Would you say it's unfair or illogical for them to make that assumption?  And in the end, she's still admitted to the school, so I don't see how it's much of an example of someone being "canceled."

 I think its very unfair.  Do you think other Marquette non-democratic incoming freshmen feel more or less welcome given this incident?


I'm glad I went to college before social media became mainstream. I don't think it's fair to the students or the wider college communities for any of these incidents to become national stories, and I think national attention short-circuits the ability for young people to experiment and evolve. Some of my beliefs and ways of thinking are consistent with my 18-year-old self, some wildly not. I rather suspect having to defend some of my younger views in the glare of a national spotlight would have impeded, rather than encouraged, my maturation.


ml1 said:

terp said:

basil said:

drummerboy said:

one good thing has come out of this. Bari Weiss resigned from the Times. woohoo! Maybe Bret Bedbug will follow.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

I have no idea who she is, so I googled her. It seems the most well-read piece she ever wrote was her resignation letter.

 A while back there was a thread discussing the Evergreen college incident involving Brett Weinstein and everyone seemed to think it was an anecdote and an anomaly and asserting that Weinstein was a racist. Anyways, I pointed put that the corporate press wasn't covering this at all.  The contrary evidence was Bari's opinion piece in the Times.

I had forgotten that story.  In retrospect doesn't it in fact seem like an anomaly unworthy of the attention it received at the time?  It was a story about a professor at one small northwest college and doesn't seem to have been indicative of anything more than that.  If anything it's a great example of Weiss's ability to take an isolated incident and blow it out of proportion to try and make a larger point that it doesn't support.

The story received next to no coverage by the corporate press. Do a search.  Nobody in the corporate press wanted to cover this story.  If you flipped the ethnicities around it would have been the lead story for months.  They did not want to cover this story because it does not fit their narrative. 

Here's another story that got next to no coverage. I wonder why that is.  You would think it would be a big story when the security forces of a movement to stop police violence shoots and kills a 16 year old black child, that would be newsworthy?   I suppose not.

I must say, for someone who seems very supportive of evolving language to protect people from insult you sure seem to have a high tolerance when it's your perceived political enemies being attacked.  Whether it's an incoming college student being threatened and then questioned by her school for a video supportive of Trump, or a Jewish journalist being harrassed in the workplace and being called a Nazi, or a liberal college professor who respectfully disagrees that white students shouldn't be allowed on campus.  


PVW said:

I'm glad I went to college before social media became mainstream. I don't think it's fair to the students or the wider college communities for any of these incidents to become national stories, and I think national attention short-circuits the ability for young people to experiment and evolve. Some of my beliefs and ways of thinking are consistent with my 18-year-old self, some wildly not. I rather suspect having to defend some of my younger views in the glare of a national spotlight would have impeded, rather than encouraged, my maturation.

 Agreed.  Remember this kid?


I should add that I am not a fan of Bari Weiss.  Furthermore, her track record on this type of thing isn't great.   Still, that does not mean it is OK for her co-workers to harass her.


terp said:

ml1 said:

terp said:

basil said:

drummerboy said:

one good thing has come out of this. Bari Weiss resigned from the Times. woohoo! Maybe Bret Bedbug will follow.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

I have no idea who she is, so I googled her. It seems the most well-read piece she ever wrote was her resignation letter.

 A while back there was a thread discussing the Evergreen college incident involving Brett Weinstein and everyone seemed to think it was an anecdote and an anomaly and asserting that Weinstein was a racist. Anyways, I pointed put that the corporate press wasn't covering this at all.  The contrary evidence was Bari's opinion piece in the Times.

I had forgotten that story.  In retrospect doesn't it in fact seem like an anomaly unworthy of the attention it received at the time?  It was a story about a professor at one small northwest college and doesn't seem to have been indicative of anything more than that.  If anything it's a great example of Weiss's ability to take an isolated incident and blow it out of proportion to try and make a larger point that it doesn't support.

The story received next to no coverage by the corporate press. Do a search.  Nobody in the corporate press wanted to cover this story.  If you flipped the ethnicities around it would have been the lead story for months.  They did not want to cover this story because it does not fit their narrative. 

Here's another story that got next to no coverage. I wonder why that is.  You would think it would be a big story when the security forces of a movement to stop police violence shoots and kills a 16 year old black child, that would be newsworthy?   I suppose not.

I must say, for someone who seems very supportive of evolving language to protect people from insult you sure seem to have a high tolerance when it's your perceived political enemies being attacked.  Whether it's an incoming college student being threatened and then questioned by her school for a video supportive of Trump, or a Jewish journalist being harrassed in the workplace and being called a Nazi, or a liberal college professor who respectfully disagrees that white students shouldn't be allowed on campus.  

Without commenting on the substance of your post, just wanted to note that I'm glad to see you're using Duck Duck Go as your search engine. For those who don't know what I'm talking about -- DDG is a privacy-focused search engine. It's on par with Google for most use cases in my experience.

https://duckduckgo.com/


DDG actually works better than Google for me.  That may be because of my political POV.  Anyway, I highly recommend. 


terp said:

I should add that I am not a fan of Bari Weiss.  Furthermore, her track record on this type of thing isn't great.   Still, that does not mean it is OK for her co-workers to harass her.

 STANV posted an article that included more of the context.  It's not surprising to find out that she didn't tell the entire story. What she described as harassment was more about anger toward her and her editor's roles in the publication of the Tom Cotton op-ed.  So probably not a pattern of harassment.


terp said:

The story received next to no coverage by the corporate press. Do a search.  Nobody in the corporate press wanted to cover this story.  If you flipped the ethnicities around it would have been the lead story for months.  They did not want to cover this story because it does not fit their narrative. 

Here's another story that got next to no coverage. I wonder why that is.  You would think it would be a big story when the security forces of a movement to stop police violence shoots and kills a 16 year old black child, that would be newsworthy?   I suppose not.

I must say, for someone who seems very supportive of evolving language to protect people from insult you sure seem to have a high tolerance when it's your perceived political enemies being attacked.  Whether it's an incoming college student being threatened and then questioned by her school for a video supportive of Trump, or a Jewish journalist being harrassed in the workplace and being called a Nazi, or a liberal college professor who respectfully disagrees that white students shouldn't be allowed on campus.  

 you often seem to reinterpret stuff I write to make me seem like a hypocritical *******.  My entire point hasn't been that these events don't happen, or to justify them.  It's to put them in the proper context and not use them as flimsy evidence of a widespread and insidious cultural trend.


terp said:

 I think its very unfair.  Do you think other Marquette non-democratic incoming freshmen feel more or less welcome given this incident?

 maybe it's unfair.  But I perceived your use of it as an example of someone being "canceled."  It's not evidence of that given the outcome.  


ml1 said:

terp said:

 I think its very unfair.  Do you think other Marquette non-democratic incoming freshmen feel more or less welcome given this incident?

 maybe it's unfair.  But I perceived your use of it as an example of someone being "canceled."  It's not evidence of that given the outcome.  

It *was* being used as an example of someone being "cancelled".  The argument changed when the audience read the actual material for the facts.


nohero said:

ml1 said:

terp said:

 I think its very unfair.  Do you think other Marquette non-democratic incoming freshmen feel more or less welcome given this incident?

 maybe it's unfair.  But I perceived your use of it as an example of someone being "canceled."  It's not evidence of that given the outcome.  

It *was* being used as an example of someone being "cancelled".  The argument changed when the audience read the actual material for the facts.

 funny thing is all this so-called evidence of "cancel culture" seems to be actually proving the opposite.  That there is scant evidence of any left-wing hysteria that results in people losing their jobs or being silenced. The most extensive list of people claiming they lost jobs due to their views was from the Quillette Twitter feed. And my perusal of the first ten or twelve claims were mostly from Canadians, who have different laws and norms about speech than we do in the U.S.

The weakest example of this was the so-called "parody" Twitter account of left wing "hysteria."  A reading of the list of examples didn't reveal any that were even remotely "hysterical", and a lot of them seemed fairly reasonable accounts of casual everyday racism.  And I'm not sure why bringing up casual racism is worthy of ridicule?  For example why shouldn't Band-Aid come in various skin tones?  Is it absurd for J&J to market them?  Wasn't it more absurd that for decades a product that was meant to be unobtrusively worn was only unobtrusive on the lightest-skinned white people?

That Twitter "satire" to me seems more an inadvertent example of white fragility than it is left wing "hysteria."  It's a white person who can't believe that maybe a Mary Poppins scene did have a racist origin, or that maybe having Hank Azaria do a funny accent as Apu was insensitive (fwiw, Hank Azaria, an intelligent and thoughtful man thinks so).  

So in order to be clear, I'll state flat out I don't think anyone should be harassed for their beliefs, and I'm not going to insist that there aren't incidents of people being treated unfairly, and sometimes yes the "SJWs" go too far to the point of absurdity.  But a few dozen examples across the country over a few years isn't a "culture."


I mostly agree with the above. I think there are real, severe issues with how social media technology has impacted culture, but there I'd frame it as "people on the left are not immune to the detrimental impact social media" not "there's a rising tide of illiberalism on the left."  I think the latter framing is mostly incorrect, taking a real problem -- the impact of social media on society -- and trying to turn it into a political cudgel.

If people want to talk about what we can do to make these new communications technologies less destructive, I think that's an important conversation to have. If political conservatives want to whine about how their cultural power is waning as previously marginalize groups make halting strides toward equality, well I'm not as interested in that conversation.


PVW said:

I mostly agree with the above. I think there are real, severe issues with how social media technology has impacted culture, but there I'd frame it as "people on the left are not immune to the detrimental impact social media" not "there's a rising tide of illiberalism on the left."  I think the latter framing is mostly incorrect, taking a real problem -- the impact of social media on society -- and trying to turn it into a political cudgel.

If people want to talk about what we can do to make these new communications technologies less destructive, I think that's an important conversation to have. If political conservatives want to whine about how their cultural power is waning as previously marginalize groups make halting strides toward equality, well I'm not as interested in that conversation.

 this is a real issue.  There are a lot of people on social media using it to bully people they don't agree with.  And it's people from the left, right, and people with no discernible ideology except to be disruptive.

But the idea that Bari Weiss or Bret Stephens or Ben Shapiro or Bill Maher or any of the other people who complain they are victims of attempted "canceling" is absurd.  These people have millions of people reading and listening to them, and they have had perches on the most prestigious platforms in our country.  Funny enough, the one person on my list who can lay claim to having been "canceled" (and literally his show was canceled), is Maher.  And he wasn't canceled by "the left", he was canceled by the "patriotic" right when he ran afoul of conservative political correctness after 9/11.


Don't forget Phil Donahue, booted from MSNBC because he was against the Iraq War.


terp said:

Here's another story that got next to no coverage. I wonder why that is.  You would think it would be a big story when the security forces of a movement to stop police violence shoots and kills a 16 year old black child, that would be newsworthy?   I suppose not.

I don’t know why the link shows only three results; when I refresh the search terms in DuckDuckGo, lots of stories come up. The shooting got widespread coverage.

Now, if I put quotes around “security,” looking for coverage that blames CHOP’s so-called security force, the results do diminish. That’s probably because they’re based on iffy sourcing.


DaveSchmidt said:

I don’t know why the link shows only three results; when I refresh the search terms in DuckDuckGo, lots of stories come up. The shooting got widespread coverage.

Now, if I put quotes around “security,” looking for coverage that blames CHOP’s so-called security force, the results do diminish. That’s probably because they’re based on iffy sourcing.

 yes.  It got a lot of coverage.  I know I had seen stories.  Pretty sure it was in the NYT.


ml1 said:

terp said:

I should add that I am not a fan of Bari Weiss.  Furthermore, her track record on this type of thing isn't great.   Still, that does not mean it is OK for her co-workers to harass her.

 STANV posted an article that included more of the context.  It's not surprising to find out that she didn't tell the entire story. What she described as harassment was more about anger toward her and her editor's roles in the publication of the Tom Cotton op-ed.  So probably not a pattern of harassment.

 Do you mean the video?  If so, I don't really had a problem with anything that was said in the video.  They clearly see this issue as a problem, but noted that Weiss might not be the best messenger.   I wholeheartedly agree with that.


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