Removing radiators and converting to forced air heat? Anyone do it? archived

I haven't done it, but wouldn't you have to put in a new furnace and humidfier? That alone would be a couple thousand dollars.

Yes, but doing central AC alone can be 20k.

This is a little drift, since we didn't replace steam w/forced air, but...

We moved from a house with radiators to one (two actually) with forced air. Things you might want to consider: forced air is much noisier, even considering occasional clanking or bubbling radiators; this is the biggest negative to me. Forced air heat is more uneven, both in space and time. Forced air seems drier to me, even with humidifier, but that could be my imagination. Drafty when it first comes on. Either because of unevenness or dryness, we have had trouble with some plants that are indoors in the winter. On the other side, the central air is very nice, even though we don't often use it, and the forced air is simpler in some ways (no feeding/babying the boiler; air vents easier to clean that radiators; don't have to work around radiators w/furniture, window treatments, etc.). Do you know anything about comparative fuel efficiency (I don't)?

Well, I am looking into the highest efficiency units. Even if it's more costly now, with the price of gas it will pay for itself in a short period of time, I expect.

One concern is that we currently have a FULL underground oil tank we were thinking of pulling this season. My GC suggested keeping the UST, our existing furnace and the rads on the first floor (at least for the time being) and only converting on the second and third floors. He said this way the more efficient radiator heat will rise, the cooler (much cooler) first floor will benefit from them, but the cool AC will find it's way downstairs anyway. (Probably not the most efficient for AC, but our first floor does stay very cool most of the time. I am usually in a robe or sweater!)

Complicated as it is, I kind of like this solution at least until we renovate the first floor (which might not be so soon, the way we're going.)

Posted By: shhOne concern is that we currently have a FULL underground oil tank we were thinking of pulling this season. My GC suggested keeping the UST

DO NOT SO THIS! Our underground oil tank situation is almost resolved, after a few years, massive excavations, and at a cost well over $100,000, covered mostly by insurance. We still don't have kitchen stairs, a paved drive, or clearance from the state of NJ, after 10 months of them sitting on the paperwork, and no end in sight. Do you really need any more details from me?

Meta, Shh is an expert on underground tanks, having a disaster when one was pulled from her previous house.

Shh, how old is your boiler? If it is near the end of its expected life euthanasia might be a good idea. There was a thread here about someone who replaced their old forced air furnace with a new one and didn't think it was working right because the issues MJC mentioned, no longer existed with new technology.

I know nothing about this and am basically procrastinating, but wouldn't keeping your existing boiler (which is sized to heat your whole house) and adding a second furnace to heat your second and third floor-- I'm guessing that's what would would happen-- be incredibly inefficient?

Unless your boiler is about to die, I wouldn't spend the extra money. I would think that if you install the duct work now for the AC you could easily switch to forced air heat if your boiler dies in a few years.

I don't think that most people who install CAC around here convert to forced air. But again, I really have no idea what I'm talking about, I just don't feel like doing my job right now.

bobk, thanks for posting about the earlier thread. Almost makes me hope that the furnace in our "new" house will go out fairly soon....


happy weekend, everyone!

Forced air is drier. I find it unpleasantly dry. We have hot water heat, which might be the least dry, and it's still dry. I definitely wouldn't want anything drier than that.

shh
For my 2-cents, at the very least, do what your gc suggested. Personally, I'd keep the radiator system & I'd only do a 2nd & third floor AC system anyway, & let the cool air drift down (if your home is anything like ours, 1st floor really does stay cool witht the thick walls, etc.)
On another the "feel" issue, forced air -as a system- doesn't feel as 'comfortable' as a radiator system (imo). I believe you'll regret swapping systems if you do. Operating wise, I'm pretty sure that a radiator system is more efficient, even when compared w/ the current crop of 'high efficiency' forced air equipment.

At a previous house, we had the AC ducts added in the attic and only cooled the upper floors through ceiling ducts. Didn't have to open up any walls to install the ductwork. System kept us very happy.

Posted By: bobkMeta, Shh is an expert on underground tanks, having a disaster when one was pulled from her previous house.

Thanks Bob.

I meant to only keep the UST until we use up the oil, then either convert to gas if possible, or install a smaller Roth tank in the basement to just heat the first floor.

Our furnace is probably 20 years old. Still runs at aboout 80% efficiency (I think, mr. Shh takes care of that part of the house).


I grew up with forced air heat, so I'm not necessarily concerned about that aspect. It has pluses and minuses. I would happily lose our BR rads as the rad in our room is under the window our bed *HAS* to go against, plus the girls' rads are in awkward places too. Downstairs is less of a concern.

The HVAC guy had some concerns about the steam pipes being in his way for the second/third floor AC, so we will see how we feel once we get his proposal. AC is definitely a must on 2/3, and if the price differential is not that great to run heat through the same ductwork, I am game. Mr. Shh may feel differently, but alas he is unreachable today.

Posted By: shhI meant to only keep the UST until we use up the oil, then either convert to gas if possible, or install a smaller Roth tank in the basement to just heat the first floor.

Glad to hear it. We got a Roth, very happy with it.

Yes, weput them in our last house and that was the only thing that didn't give us trouble during the oil tank fiasco of 2006.

We actually went this route. No regrets - we're very happy with the forced air heating. The modern systems have fans that run at different speeds so you don't get the cycling on and off that you tend to get with the older systems. We also find that the house stays at a more constant heat than it ever did with the steam. We also had a humidifier put into the system so don't find it dry at all. And although I liked the look of our old radiators, we love the flexibility we now have in our rooms, particularly the bedrooms, now that they have gone. We're looking forward to the summer and trying out the new A/C..... Feel free to whisper me for more info.

Do you have to remove the asbestos wrapped pipes from inside your walls if you remove the boiler heating system?

Hommell, I have yet to see an asbestos wrapped pipe (and we've opened lots of walls). I suppose some pipes we'd have to remove and others we might just cap?

No asbestos wrapped pipes for us either. They were able to remove all the steam pipes in the basement and those leading to the first floor (our basement is not finished). The pipes leading to the radiators on the second floor were cut and left in the wall.

I grew up with a forced are system and hated it. As soon as the thermostat is satisfied, the room gets cold again. I remember sitting right in front of the vents while they were running because that was the only place I could get warm.

That doesn't happen in every place with forced air. Maybe your house was poorly insulated or had too much circulation in the house.

Be very careful with pullling a UST, I bought my house and pulled my UST and had proguard through Woolleys....thought the tank was fine since no oil was found during the testing prior to closing.

Call Applied Service Corp in Lafayette NJ, (http://www.appliedservice.com/) they are the nicest crew and really hepled me work through Proguard/Chubb/NJ DEP nightmare since my tank had a small bullet hole in it.

You must have a new oil tank in your basement prior to pulling the UST or they wont pay. I am lucky that the clean up was small in nature but the 10 x 20 foot hole in my driveway and year of my life dealing with NJ DEP, proguard and Chubb leads me to warn you to read your Proguard and homeowners policy very carefully and dont mess around with this...understand everything before you start. I sure didn't and got lucky that the clean up was small in nature and I had the right homeowners policy.

Woolley's Fuel recommended Applied Services and they are approved by Proguard. If you have a problem, you will want the same company who pulled the tank handling the clean up.

Also, If you think the water level in your area is high (i.e. you have a very active sump pump) be even more careful as Proguard does NOT cover oil below the water table and you will need to call your homeowners policy if the tank is leaking below the water table.

Water in NJ is owned by the state so technically any natural water running under your house is owned by the state which makes them your neighbor which should activiate your homeowners policy.

We did the conversion with a major addition/renovation. We now have 2 systems, one for 2nd and 3rd floor and one for basement and first floor. Overall, I think this is the best way to go. You absolutely will need to add humidty in the winter though. With added humidity I find the forced air to be more even and the rooms to overall be more confortable than our previous system (it was horribly old though). We had some "attachment" to the radiators before doing this. I will say that whatever "look" one might like with the radiators it is more than made up by having them gone (and the floor space returned).

I could post on this topic for days but since I am a working man I will give you my brief opinion. Forced hot air is dry and dusty. I have done it for people as per their request and they 1/2 regret doing it. Besides it drying out the room it is not as efficient as baseboard heat. It is more pleasing to the eye and gives more space in the room but other than that I wouldn't do it. Plus the cost for a HVAC forced hot air unit and AC unit will run you over $17000. It is not worth it.
Lloyd

Why is it not worth it? We want to put central AC in, and the cost to add in heat is not much more (I got the quote). We actually find the radiators to be quite dry during the winter, at least with the forced air we can add the whole house humidifier.

If you get the forced air system, get a really good high efficiency filter system with it. We got an Air Bear, which has a massive filter, 6" thick, which is great for cutting down on pollen and dust, plus it only needs to be changed twice a year. Either that or get an electronic air cleaner. And the whole house humidifier is definitely a necessity.

Having known only forced air heat until moving to SO 7 years ago, I had never lived (or owned) a house with a boiler. I have hot water baseboards throughout this house -- and I would never want to go back to forced air. Radiant heat is SO much more comfortable. The heating process is so different. Radiant heat heats you, while forced air heats the air, then heats you -- just not as comfortable.

I also think that a boiler is more efficient. I have 3 zones -- master bedroom, other bedrooms, and main living area. Much harder to do a zoned forced air system.

Also great to not move dust, smells, etc from one part of house to throughout the house. I wouldn't want to do without central air, but given the choice, and if it were affordable, I'd have radiant heat in addition.

The downsides to a boiler/baseboards is that it is more expensive to install, a bit more complex system to maintain, and you do have to consider furniture placement (but, so do you with forced air vents). If money were no object, I'd put radiant heat in the floors throughout the house -- both for comfort and aesthetics.

/p

Posted By: shhWhy is it not worth it? We want to put central AC in, and the cost to add in heat is not much more (I got the quote). We actually find the radiators to be quite dry during the winter, at least with the forced air we can add the whole house humidifier.

Shh,
As expressed on MANY MOL threads, MANY periodical articles, and MANY water cooler conversations, an overriding sentiment is that heat provided in a radiant method (radiators, radiant-floor systems, baseboards, etc.) is "more comfortable" than ANY forced air system. Use any metric you want... humidity, noise, smell, 'feeling warmth', efficiency, etc. etc. , but radiant systems are overwhelmingly gauged 'better' than forced air, generally.

You, obviously, have a different sentiment about forced air vs. radiant especially regarding comfort, which is fine. And so, for your druthers, a forced-air system will be quite acceptable. Plus you'll be getting the AC aspect. So... then that's great! Enjoy!! Don't worry about the consensus on which system is best......

No, I got ya' there, but Fleming's post seemed to be talking more about the dollar amount of what is "worth it." At least that was my take on it. I am not trying to be a brat about it, but I am trying to work out a solution.

Anyway, no matter what it seems we WILL stick with the rads on the first floor anyway, so my hope is we get the best of both worlds. (And the heat from our radiator will not be behind our bed any longer.) I appreciate all the thoughts.