Oligarchy in Action


shoshannah said:



LOST
said:


The Democratic Party was never going to pick Bernie over Hillary and the country was not going to elect an elderly Jewish Socialist.

True. Take it from another (almost) elderly Jewish socialist.

Plus, his seedier side hadn't come out yet. Repubs were saving that in their back pockets.

If there were a seedier side you don't think her Highness would have been all over it?


It does not matter whether or not there was actually " a seedier side". Trump & Company would have made something up.

Further there are elements who would have said that being Jewish was "seedy" not to mention being a "Socialist".



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)



DaveSchmidt said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)

I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

I do not believe a poll that puts Joe Biden as the leader for 2020.  That's not going to happen.  Probably the way they worded the poll or the group they polled.



nan said:



DaveSchmidt said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)

I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

I do not believe a poll that puts Joe Biden as the leader for 2020.  That's not going to happen.  Probably the way they worded the poll or the group they polled.

I'll take a mid January poll over an August one any day. Maybe you should too.



Dennis_Seelbach said:



nan said:



DaveSchmidt said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)

I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

I do not believe a poll that puts Joe Biden as the leader for 2020.  That's not going to happen.  Probably the way they worded the poll or the group they polled.

I'll take a mid January poll over an August one any day. Maybe you should too.

Those polls are not equivalent.  Joe Biden is just another neoliberal hack and this country desperately need a different approach. He will never make it through the primaries unless the DNC gives him the same deal they gave Clinton. I think they are lining up Kamala Harris instead.  Kirsten Gillibrand and Cory Booker have announced they will not longer take PAC money so even the establishment is catching the drift. There will be lots of fake Bernie clones trying for the nomination in 2020.  I doubt Biden will be able to fake that. 



nan said:

DaveSchmidt said:

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)
I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

Right. Same polling outfit. In other words, same source.



nan said:




Those polls are not equivalent.  Joe Biden is just another neoliberal hack and this country desperately need a different approach. He will never make it through the primaries unless the DNC gives him the same deal they gave Clinton. I think they are lining up Kamala Harris instead.  Kirsten Gillibrand and Cory Booker have announced they will not longer take PAC money so even the establishment is catching the drift. There will be lots of fake Bernie clones trying for the nomination in 2020.  I doubt Biden will be able to fake that. 

I think you do not know much about Joe Biden.


Nan is living in her own reality.   We're just guests here praying for Uber to show up.


Help. Help.  This thread is turning me into a neoliberal.



dave said:

Help. Help.  This thread is turning me into a neoliberal.

You were probably already there.  We need a different direction.  It is unlikely that Joe Biden as President would be much different than Obama was, and that led us to Trump.  Biden has a great personality (as does Obama--time to stop evaluating politians on how they look and sound and to look closely at the polices), but his policies seem to be just more of the same that got us to gargantuan wage inequality without access to afordable healthcare.  I will be glad to be proven wrong, but he does not seem to be a Progressive.  More like this:  https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/25/the-misguided-mission-of-joe-biden/



sbenois said:

Nan is living in her own reality.   We're just guests here praying for Uber to show up.

Hope you never have to live outside of your 1% bubble.  You would not last long. 



nan said:



sbenois said:

Nan is living in her own reality.   We're just guests here praying for Uber to show up.

Hope you never have to live outside of your 1% bubble.  You would not last long. 

1% ??? Your math skills are as lacking as your common sense. Really sad.


If you don't know what I was referring to then you are really sad.  I started this thread to talk about how our Democracy has turned into an Oligarchy, not trivial references.  A 2014 Princeton study brought this topic into public discussion:  http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746



RobB said:



lord_pabulum said:
Of course over $60 million in donations from Wall street to HRC and Pro HRC Super PACs doesn't count

$60 million is a rounding error on their cocaine budget when you consider what they spent on lobbying during the 2016 election. 

So what's the maximum amount a candidate can receive where they can say they stand for "taking money out of politics"?  Remember "America has the best politicians money can buy"



My view is that this is a big country, and there is room for lots of different viewpoints.



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

I'm from western Pa., and there is no way that the people who voted for Trump would have voted for a Jewish socialist. They would have overwhelmingly voted for Biden. He's their type of guy. 

eta - My hometown is a county seat and a university town. The biggest industry in the county had been the coal industry. The county had historically voted for a Democrat.  It voted 2-1 in favor of Trump. It would have been 2-1 for Biden, had he run. 



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).



nan said:



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).

Could is not the same as would and, as I said before, nobody can know.  (And we will never know.)  

People are also sick of Democrats/Liberals fighting among themselves. As long as we do that, those other guys are going to keep winning and that will be worse.  (I'm not defending any particular faction of the progressive side in this post, but I believe that we are our own worst enemies right now.)


when you talk about her horrible campaign - does it matter at all to you that she got 3 million more votes than cheeto?

If not, why not? Or is this just another inconvenient fact you wish to ignore?

nan said:



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).




sac said:



nan said:



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).

Could is not the same as would and, as I said before, nobody can know.  (And we will never know.)  

People are also sick of Democrats/Liberals fighting among themselves. As long as we do that, those other guys are going to keep winning and that will be worse.  (I'm not defending any particular faction of the progressive side in this post, but I believe that we are our own worst enemies right now.)

Seems like to you it is all just a silly squabble.  What you don't get is that the people you want to win are only slightly better than the people who you are against.  And they set up the conditions to get more of the people you don't like elected.  We need major change.  Just voting for lessor evil is not working anymore.  Even the AFL-CIO is calling for an end:  

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/afl-cio-calls-for-a-break-with-lesser-of-two-evils-politics/



nan said:



DaveSchmidt said:


nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)

I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

I do not believe a poll that puts Joe Biden as the leader for 2020.  That's not going to happen.  Probably the way they worded the poll or the group they polled.

Thanks for the link to that Newsweek article. It also says this about Bernie Sanders' supporters -


 Is it fair to blame Sanders for the end result of the election? There is evidence, at least, that a significant portion of Sanders’ supporters played a big role in Clinton’s loss.  According to an analysis of voter data by the blog Political Wire, less than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders in the primaries voted for Clinton in the general election. Meanwhile, 12 percent of those who supported Sanders ended up voting for Trump in the end.  In short, it could be argued Sanders voters helped swing the election to Trump.


drummerboy said:

when you talk about her horrible campaign - does it matter at all to you that she got 3 million more votes than cheeto?

If not, why not? Or is this just another inconvenient fact you wish to ignore?

nan said:



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).

This bears repeating - HRC WON - 



South_Mountaineer said:



nan said:



DaveSchmidt said:


nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country.

More fun with polling, from the same source:

Biden holds double-digit lead over field of 2020 Dem presidential contenders

(Not mentioned in the results: Anita Hill, Neil Kinnock and Hunter Biden, none of whom would go unmentioned for long in a presidential race.)

I was referring to this:  http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-most-popular-politician-655315

I do not believe a poll that puts Joe Biden as the leader for 2020.  That's not going to happen.  Probably the way they worded the poll or the group they polled.

Thanks for the link to that Newsweek article. It also says this about Bernie Sanders' supporters -



 Is it fair to blame Sanders for the end result of the election? There is evidence, at least, that a significant portion of Sanders’ supporters played a big role in Clinton’s loss.  According to an analysis of voter data by the blog Political Wire, less than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders in the primaries voted for Clinton in the general election. Meanwhile, 12 percent of those who supported Sanders ended up voting for Trump in the end.  In short, it could be argued Sanders voters helped swing the election to Trump.

Right, Newsweek, an establishment rag, admits he's the most popular politician and then tries to take him down.  Yawn.



Scully said:



drummerboy said:

when you talk about her horrible campaign - does it matter at all to you that she got 3 million more votes than cheeto?

If not, why not? Or is this just another inconvenient fact you wish to ignore?

nan said:



sac said:



nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 

Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.

Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).

This bears repeating - HRC WON - 

No, she lost.  She lost to a psychotic cheeto and Democrats downstream were also wiped out.  This bears repeating.



nan said:

Scully said:

This bears repeating - HRC WON - 

No, she lost.  She lost to a psychotic cheeto and Democrats downstream were also wiped out.  This bears repeating.

She won more votes. 

Democrats gained 2 Senate seats. 

Democrats gained 6 House seats. 


exactly as I expected. Deny inconvenient facts, and then make up your own.

Not a long term strategy for success, I assure you.

nan said:

Scully said:drummerboy said:

when you talk about her horrible campaign - does it matter at all to you that she got 3 million more votes than cheeto?

If not, why not? Or is this just another inconvenient fact you wish to ignore?

nan said:

sac said:

nan said:

Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. He would have beaten Trump. 
Nobody can know that.  And it is HIGHLY probable that Clinton would have beaten Trump if it were not for the Comey letter.
Clinton should have been able to beat a psychotic cheeto by a landslide.  She ran a horrible campaign and now blames everyone but herself for the loss.  Anyone else would have won, including Bernie.  People are sick of establishment politicians (except in Maplewood--affluent middle-aged white people still seem to be fans).
This bears repeating - HRC WON - 
No, she lost.  She lost to a psychotic cheeto and Democrats downstream were also wiped out.  This bears repeating.



Winning the popular vote is not winning in the United States.   Changing that is a good idea, but have not heard much about that.  In the 2016 election the Republicans won control of the House and the Senate and in many other races across the country. It was a stunning defeat.  


Thanks to you and the rest of the Bernie Bots.   Nice job.  Now go start your own party and stop whining.


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