Movie Review: Doubt
Dec 28, 2008 at 4:54pm Edited
Wow! I loved it too. The amazing thing about Streep's performance is that she was kept from using her hands for most of it...it would have been out of character for a nun to touch her face, etc. as Streep so often does in her roles, hence her face was her only resource....Hoffman was also excellent. I would give it 3 1/2 stars
Curious to hear a movie review from somebody who saw the play on broadway. (the play was one of the highlights of a lifetime of a lot of theatregoing, so I have a feeling this movie will disappoint me... but if someone else who loved the play also loves the movie, i'll definitely give it a try!)
I saw the play on broadway and I am looking forward to seeing the film version. . . i am a big Phillip Seymor Hoffman fan.
Dec 28, 2008 at 5:43pm Edited
i probably have unrealistic expectations for the movie. we had front row seats at the Manhattan Theatre Club off-broadway theater where doubt opened before going to broadway (its the only theater i know where front row is good - you're almost at stage level - not craning your neck up) Anyway, it was just dumb luck getting to see the brilliant original cast within nearly arm's reach perform such a riveting piece of writing. No movie's going to touch that experience. But some of the reviews of the movie have been harsh, leading me to wonder if i was blinded to weaknesses in the play because of the unique experience we had at the show.
I saw both the play and the movie--I'd say that the movie was a pretty faithful version of the play, with one very important exception--in the movie, you actually SEE Sr. Aloysius and Fr. Flynn interacting with characters that the play only refers to. This had some positive effects and some negative effects, IMO. The negative effect, obviously, is that the various interactions might affect your judgment/thinking for the "mystery" that is at the center of the film. The positive effects for me were that all the interactions really reminded me of what Catholic school was like (even though my tenure there was probably 10 years later than when the film is set). In most other ways, though, the movie and play were extremely similar--I'm willing to bet that the interaction between Streep and Hoffman toward the end of the film is 99% straight out of the play script.
My biggest problem with the movie was that I wasn't exactly sure that it should have been made at all, as the play itself is not very cinematic, IMO. The story is so "small," for lack of a better word, that there really isn't a huge plot to begin with. I almost would have just rathered seen Streep and Hoffman do the play. I thought both actors were really good, btw, as was Amy Adams (didn't expect much from her, to be honest). And Viola Davis as the mother is wonderful in what is probably the most interesting part in the play/movie.
My biggest problem with the movie was that I wasn't exactly sure that it should have been made at all, as the play itself is not very cinematic, IMO. The story is so "small," for lack of a better word, that there really isn't a huge plot to begin with. I almost would have just rathered seen Streep and Hoffman do the play. I thought both actors were really good, btw, as was Amy Adams (didn't expect much from her, to be honest). And Viola Davis as the mother is wonderful in what is probably the most interesting part in the play/movie.
Saw the play on Broadway and thought the four actors were great. Felt that despite the serious subject matter there were some light moments due to the wit and humor in the writing. But when I see the trailers of the movie, it gives the impression it is all dark and grim.
May 17, 2009 at 5:12pm Edited
Very good acting, very dark story.
Spoiler alert:
Question: what do you think Streep's doubts were at the end?
Was she doubting her judgement about the priest's pedophelia?
Or was she doubting that she did the right thing by exposing him - and getting him "promoted" to a larger school where he had more power and freedom to practice his pedophelia?
She also had the inherent knowledge that pedophelia is incurable, which has only been discovered recently. She was excellent playing this role. Disturbing movie.
Spoiler alert:
Question: what do you think Streep's doubts were at the end?
Was she doubting her judgement about the priest's pedophelia?
Or was she doubting that she did the right thing by exposing him - and getting him "promoted" to a larger school where he had more power and freedom to practice his pedophelia?
She also had the inherent knowledge that pedophelia is incurable, which has only been discovered recently. She was excellent playing this role. Disturbing movie.
I think that she had doubts about him at the end and was unsure of what she had done. Nothing was proven and I had a hard time believing that he was a pedophile...maybe I am naive- but she did not convince me that he was a pedophile. I
May 18, 2009 at 5:37am Edited
The movie convinced me that this priest was a classic pedophile, these chararcters are charming and very cleverly ingratiating, they have people amazingly fooled because they will go to any lengths to be around their prey. Plus, people don't want to believe that this type of monster actually exists.
Phillip Seymour did a great job.
I think her doubts were that she wasn't sure if she did the right thing by exposing him, given that the consequences gave him more power and a bigger arena to prey on kids.
Phillip Seymour did a great job.
I think her doubts were that she wasn't sure if she did the right thing by exposing him, given that the consequences gave him more power and a bigger arena to prey on kids.
Glad I wasn't the only one who was perplexed by the ending.
Streep was magnificent, as she usually always is. Enjoyed her character immensly--tough when she needed to be, but also very caring, as evidenced by her efforts to protect the one elderly nun who was going blind. Hoffman was also very good, powerful. Amy Adams did a really great job as the wide-eyed innocent with the soft heart and trusting soul. Personally, I wasn't convinced one way or the other whether the priest was actually a pedophile or not, particularly in light of Sr. Aloysius lie about having spoken to a nun at his former school.
As far as her "doubt" at the end, I came to no immediate conclusion. I guess, if I thought about it (and I have), I might have to say her doubt was a broad and all-encompassing doubt about her church, and how it could go on allowing this type of thing to happen.
Streep was magnificent, as she usually always is. Enjoyed her character immensly--tough when she needed to be, but also very caring, as evidenced by her efforts to protect the one elderly nun who was going blind. Hoffman was also very good, powerful. Amy Adams did a really great job as the wide-eyed innocent with the soft heart and trusting soul. Personally, I wasn't convinced one way or the other whether the priest was actually a pedophile or not, particularly in light of Sr. Aloysius lie about having spoken to a nun at his former school.
As far as her "doubt" at the end, I came to no immediate conclusion. I guess, if I thought about it (and I have), I might have to say her doubt was a broad and all-encompassing doubt about her church, and how it could go on allowing this type of thing to happen.
"I guess, if I thought about it (and I have), I might have to say her doubt was a broad and all-encompassing doubt about her church, and how it could go on allowing this type of thing to happen."
That too! She may have been doubting her belief in her god even...pedophilia is a monstrous thing.
That too! She may have been doubting her belief in her god even...pedophilia is a monstrous thing.
I think she doubted her unflinching certainty that Father Flynn was a pederast. There was no suggestion in the film that her doubt extended to the church or to god. In fact, she didn't strike me as being a particularly religious person. (In fact, she may have subliminally substituted certainty about earthly things for certainty about god.) And yet nothing in the film conclusively proved that Flynn was a pederast. The circumstantial evidence (e.g., returning the boy's tee shirt to his locker, moving from parish to parish, his vanity about his fingernails) was not particularly strong. In so far as her certainty was founded on a hunch, and yet was fierce enough to convict this guy of an appalling deed and get him fired, I think her admission of doubt at the end was probably focused on her flinty, unbending, and ultimately unjust sense of certainty.
I also think that her doubt was about whether she did he right thing in her accusation and action against the priest. She lived her life strictly following the notion that she doesn't need to have proof to have certainty and that certainty is the more important of the two. I think her doubt represented her recognition that she may be wrong about that assertion.
What I was more puzzled about was when they showed the blond boy at the end - while the priest was giving his final mass at this parish. The boy cracked a slight smile. This was the same boy meryl streep said she saw interact with the priest and she used that as any indication that he was a pedophile. Was he smiling in relief that they got rid of the priest who was making advances at him or did he just not like the priest and was glad they got rid of him?
What I was more puzzled about was when they showed the blond boy at the end - while the priest was giving his final mass at this parish. The boy cracked a slight smile. This was the same boy meryl streep said she saw interact with the priest and she used that as any indication that he was a pedophile. Was he smiling in relief that they got rid of the priest who was making advances at him or did he just not like the priest and was glad they got rid of him?
After re-reading my last entry - I'm not sure if there was a greater implication that she doubted her faith. Isn't faith "certainty without proof"? I don't know that the character knew why it upset her so much to have doubts about her actions against the priest, but deep down, maybe it calls into question the very tenets of faith - certainty without proof - is it truth?
The way I see it, certainty is sort of a secular counterpart to faith. Both are a type of conviction, though with reference to different spheres. But where certainty is based on proof, faith is based on revelation. Different standards. But maybe Streep's seeming acknowledgment that her certainty rested on something less than proof -- that her certainty was defective -- was a metaphor for her defective faith? Possibly. But Streep's character never suggested that she was troubled by doubts about her faith. I think if her character had subtly suggested that, it might have given the movie a deeper resonance. All we know for sure is that she unfairly judged the priest, and at the end of the film was very troubled about it. That's the only firm link the film lets us make. Everything else is speculation.
May 21, 2009 at 1:36pm Edited
Answer: all of the above. :bigsmile:
Just so happens my uncle directed the play when it first came out, and then went to Broadway. After seeing it, we had dinner and discussed it and the "doubt" was all over the place, kind of like your posts. Even doubtful as to where the desire was coming from: kids or priest. Hard to pin down, hence interesting.
"All we know for sure is that she unfairly judged the priest"
Are you sure?
Just so happens my uncle directed the play when it first came out, and then went to Broadway. After seeing it, we had dinner and discussed it and the "doubt" was all over the place, kind of like your posts. Even doubtful as to where the desire was coming from: kids or priest. Hard to pin down, hence interesting.
"All we know for sure is that she unfairly judged the priest"
Are you sure?
Shanabana beat me to it - (though she has a pretty good source there - wow!)
When I saw the play (off-broadway, with the same cast that went to broadway), John Patrick Shanley was inviting audience members to e-mail him, and engaged in a bit of back and forth e-mailing about the play with theatergoers (myself included). I've never heard of a playwright doing that before or since, by the way.
Anyway, I felt that her "doubt" in the closing line was about, as shanabana says 'all of the above', and Shanley corroborated that. She finally came to doubt her certainty about the priest's guilt, and even her faith.
Interesting tidbit I learned along the way: Shanley's inspiration for writing the play was not his own Catholic school upbringing - he used that for material and authenticity - but the inspiration for the subject of DOUBT itself was...
(drumroll please)
The Bush Administration's certainty (and professed lack of Doubt) about its actions in the War in Iraq. One of his key points is that when anyone claims to have absolutely no doubt, that's the time to start becoming increasingly skeptical of their claim/belief system.
When I saw the play (off-broadway, with the same cast that went to broadway), John Patrick Shanley was inviting audience members to e-mail him, and engaged in a bit of back and forth e-mailing about the play with theatergoers (myself included). I've never heard of a playwright doing that before or since, by the way.
Anyway, I felt that her "doubt" in the closing line was about, as shanabana says 'all of the above', and Shanley corroborated that. She finally came to doubt her certainty about the priest's guilt, and even her faith.
Interesting tidbit I learned along the way: Shanley's inspiration for writing the play was not his own Catholic school upbringing - he used that for material and authenticity - but the inspiration for the subject of DOUBT itself was...
(drumroll please)
The Bush Administration's certainty (and professed lack of Doubt) about its actions in the War in Iraq. One of his key points is that when anyone claims to have absolutely no doubt, that's the time to start becoming increasingly skeptical of their claim/belief system.
Seeing the play - and the movie - were both amazing experiences because in both cases I sat near people who you could palpably sense watched the whole play/movie thinking they absolutely knew if he "did it" or didn't.
And when, in the end, they sensed (correctly) that Shanley was saying that he wasn't telling you which it was - there were people in the audience who were P*SSED OFF! They wanted tidy answers, and Shanley pulled the rug out from underneath them. (Maybe when the title is "doubt" audience members shouldn't be shocked if the ending leaves them in doubt.)
At the play I remember the woman next to me laughed and groaned at the points where it indicated she felt he was guilty as the day is long. And the guy behind me made his own litany of sound effects that showed he saw the whole thing as a witch hunt against an innocent man. They were both chastened at the end.
At the movie an older woman behind me stood up at the end, during the beginning of the credits and despite sounding utterly involved through the entire film, said "that was TERRIBLE. how could they leave it like that!" She didn't pay $10+ for ambiguity!
And when, in the end, they sensed (correctly) that Shanley was saying that he wasn't telling you which it was - there were people in the audience who were P*SSED OFF! They wanted tidy answers, and Shanley pulled the rug out from underneath them. (Maybe when the title is "doubt" audience members shouldn't be shocked if the ending leaves them in doubt.)
At the play I remember the woman next to me laughed and groaned at the points where it indicated she felt he was guilty as the day is long. And the guy behind me made his own litany of sound effects that showed he saw the whole thing as a witch hunt against an innocent man. They were both chastened at the end.
At the movie an older woman behind me stood up at the end, during the beginning of the credits and despite sounding utterly involved through the entire film, said "that was TERRIBLE. how could they leave it like that!" She didn't pay $10+ for ambiguity!
Right, dawprod, now I remember the WMD Iraq issue - it was a more obvious subtext when the play came out!
There were 2 levels of ambiguity in the movie:
1. did the priest do it or not?
2. was Streep's doubt in reference to the priest, the church, or her own faith? Or all/some of the above?
Re #1, we can't know if the priest did it or not; the movie doesn't permit us to make that judgment. Shanabana, that's why I think Streep unfairly judged the priest. Re #2, the case for this ambiguity seems weaker to me. I don't think the movie warrants the leap from ambiguity #1 to ambiguity #2. I thought the movie hewed pretty closely to the mundane category of secular certainty -- a world of misdeed, evidence, suspicion, inference, etc. I didn't feel as if that drama were an allegory for some larger crisis of faith. If Streep's emotional breakdown at the end of the film resonated beyond her doubts about the priest, I don't think the movie successfully laid the groundwork for that. Fascinating information about Shanley's inspiration for the story. Streep was Rummy/Cheney, but with a conscience!
1. did the priest do it or not?
2. was Streep's doubt in reference to the priest, the church, or her own faith? Or all/some of the above?
Re #1, we can't know if the priest did it or not; the movie doesn't permit us to make that judgment. Shanabana, that's why I think Streep unfairly judged the priest. Re #2, the case for this ambiguity seems weaker to me. I don't think the movie warrants the leap from ambiguity #1 to ambiguity #2. I thought the movie hewed pretty closely to the mundane category of secular certainty -- a world of misdeed, evidence, suspicion, inference, etc. I didn't feel as if that drama were an allegory for some larger crisis of faith. If Streep's emotional breakdown at the end of the film resonated beyond her doubts about the priest, I don't think the movie successfully laid the groundwork for that. Fascinating information about Shanley's inspiration for the story. Streep was Rummy/Cheney, but with a conscience!
May 22, 2009 at 5:50am Edited
Posted By: Mike G
I didn't feel as if that drama were an allegory for some larger crisis of faith. If Streep's emotional breakdown at the end of the film resonated beyond her doubts about the priest, I don't think the movie successfully laid the groundwork for that.
I watched this movie last night as a result of this thread.
It was a very powerful film, and as a product of Catholic education of that era,it continues to haunt me today.
Mike, I have to disagree with you about the foreshadowing.
When Sister Aloysius spoke with Mrs. Miller about her late husband, that indicated that there was so much more to this nun that was hidden, and percolating just below the surface.
Then, when confronted by Father Flynn, and asked if she never did anything wrong, and she admitted to having committed a mortal sin but she confessed,and it was forgiven. The tears and raw emotion, convinced me that she never forgave herself, and could not accept the Church's stance on confession and forgiveness.
This was pivotal, because since she could never forgive herself, she could not allow herself to forgive anyone else. This explains her myopia when it came to Father Flynn. She had embarked on a course, and pursued it with a vengeance. Her pride ( one of the seven deadly sins) would not permit her to relent.
Her breakdown was predictable because there was so much conflict within her. When she saw Sister James, in reaction to her lie,lose respect for the persona she had created, it all statred to unravel.
I think the priest was collateral damage
The question of his sin, was really a subplot. And, I know mem will disagree with me here, I don't think he abused Donald. The one who may have, was the "Blonde" kid(London)---Sister Aloysius recognized the evil in him, but was blind to what that really was. The reason he was smiling in the end, to my mind,was because he got away with deflecting his deed onto the priest, who may have known about London's abuse of Donald. Father Flynn protected Donald and his abuser, and that was his sin.
Interesting perspective, Calliope, especially your theory about the blond kid. I need to watch that movie again!
Interesting theory Calli. That may be true about the abuse between the two little boys, but it doesn't mean the priest is innocent either.
I recently saw "Doubt" on Comcast's On Demand Free Movies channel. (It's up until January 31st, 2016). I was totally blown away by Meryl Streep's performance as the Mother Superior of the parish school featured in the film. I attended a parochial school which was run by an order of very strict nuns. This was during the period when corporal punishment was still used in the Catholic schools. Streep nailed it in her demeanor and complete body language of the authoritarian nuns I encountered in my eight years in elementary school. As Sister Aloysius Beauvier, Streep was psychologically terrifying in the very same manner as *some* of the nuns at my school. Sister Beauvier's ability to walk on cat feet and catch her prey in the act, the accusatory pointing of her index finger was very reminiscent of my school days.
During the film I found myself switching back and forth between suspicion about Father Flynn, the Philip Seymour Hoffman character, and wondering if he was unjustly accused. Did he or didn't he? There was a big gray area there. Then you are confronted with the powerful Viola Davis (Mrs. Miller) conversation with Sister Beauvier about her son's relationship with Father Flynn. It, along with Sister Beauvier's confrontation with Father Flynn are two of the most riveting scenes in the film. There's no passive involvement in this film; it is left up to you to draw your own conclusion. At the conclusion we find that, for Sister Beauvier, the end justified her means. An imperfect end at that.
If you can do watch it.
Oh man. Now I have to watch it again. First time around I went with the simple projection that the accused was guilty. When the Streep character questioned herself, I left the movie with the feeling of disappointment. She was just a silly lost soul to me at that point. if the movie was based on President Bush and Iraq, I still feel the same way. The bigger picture for me says you don't live in a way that has others questioning your motives. If I live in a way that does not consider others, just shoot me.
BTW, watching "Doubt" reminded me again of the tragedy of the loss of Philip Seymour Hoffman.
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Very strong performances by Meryl Streep, Mr. Hoffman and that cutesy pie Amy Adams. Would have been higher had I not fallen asleep during the most critical moment.
Sorry. I was pooped not bored.