Mandarin for High School Student Beginner

My son, who attends Columbia High School, is eager to begin learning Mandarin this summer. I've spent way too much time at work trying to find an affordable summer program. Middlebury's wonderful, one month immersion program costs $6,000 (or $6,500 after April 1st), which is just an impossible expense.

Would anyone know of a good summer Mandarin program for high school students anywhere in the East (preferably driving distance, and thus from Maine to Northern Virginia) that is at most half the BMW Middlebury cost?

Thank you!

A couple of random ideas: have you looked at programs in nearby parts of Canada, Montreal, maybe Toronto? With the C$ at 80 cents, you could find prices more reasonable there. Second, some of the state education gifted and talented programs have camps that are open to out of state students. I'm not sure how competitive these are but in certain cases, they are required by their outside funders to do this, ie Maryland. MD does not have Mandarin for your child's age, but maybe look around at other state run programs?
Good luck!

West Orange HS offers Chinese as one of their world language options. Maybe he could do Summer School there - if Chinese was offered?

or maybe these?

http://www.learn4good.com/schools/study_mandarin_chinese_language_classes2.htm
http://www.pcls.org/
http://www.livingstonhuaxia.org/
http://www.livingstonchineseschool.org

Thank you both very much. These are great ideas. My son, independently, looked up Berlitz. They have an office in Summit that offers private tutoring - 22 hours (15, 1-1/2 hour sessions) for $1,900. This is not cost-effective but it's good to know all of the options. My other teen may be going to a state school summer gifted and talented program, in a state where we have relatives with whom she can live. This is, indeed, the most bang-for-your-buck summer program option!

Crazy idea, but maybe not….as the parent of two children who have studied Putonghua (Mandarin) for seven years in an English-dominant environment, I am a big believer in full immersion if you really want to make progress. Has he considered going to China or Taiwan this summer? There are many programs that would be cheaper for you (airfare + tuition + board/homestay), than studying for a few hours a day locally and would likely produce better results. You'll want to make sure that the program is not full of native English speakers (too much temptation). Some of these enviornments are more like summer camps with lots of recreation, etc., vs. classroom setting. If you are interested, I'll try to get a few names for you.

Not sure, but you might check with Seton Hall re possible instructors. They have a pretty big Asian Studies department and I am pretty sure that Mandarin (as well as Japanese and likely some other Asian languages) are in the curriculum, so there may be professors and/or graduate students in the area that might do tutoring or run some small classes.

Recently I was talking with a middle aged Asian woman who mentioned going to "Seton Hall" for Chinese lessonsin her youth.

I would imagine NYU might include Mandarin in their summer program for HS Students.

There are quite a few places in Livingston. I think there is one on Mt. Pleasant Ave. Look them up and see if they offer classes to older children. If not, I'm sure you could get private tutoring.

When I needed to learn Mandarin for a trip to China for work, I contacted the department at Seton hall - they have a huge Chinese department. One of the professors put me in touch with a grad student. We worked one on one for a year before my trip - sometimes in person, sometimes on skype. It worked out great and what I learned made a big difference on my trip. The grad student was a woman from China here studying.

Hi
Not to put a damper on this discussion, but I have some experience in this department. Let me just say that Mandarin is an extremely difficult language to learn for English speakers (reverse is true for Mandarin speakers). The written language is frightening, one has to learn at least 4,000 characters just to read a basic newspaper. Each character also changes meaning when combined with others, plus you have to memorize the sound for each character. The spoken language for Chinese is actually very simple, compared to English. There are no verb tenses, plural/singular, gender, particles, etc. But there is this whole other system of qualifying words to connote mood or emphasis, counting etc. It is very different from anything we know in English. The tonal aspect of the language is also quite a challenge for Indo-European language speakers.
With that said, my opinion is that unless one starts this language at a very early age and is totally immersed then the likelihood of achieving fluency is extremely difficult. I know people who are over the critical age for learning languages easily (I think it's 12 or 13, after this the brain shifts in terms of learning new languages) and they have lived and worked in China for several years and their ability to speak the language even at a basic level is frighteningly lacking. (let's not even discuss being able to read Chinese).
My point is please think long and hard about spending your money on something like this. It is not like learning Spanish or French for us English-speakers. These short programs are a complete waste of money, I would rule those out completely. Buy Rosetta Stone for your child and let him or her see if they like the language and can tolerate the difficulty of it before you invest any more time and money.

My nephew learned Mandarin in high school - 3 years in the classroom and one year in China living with a local family. He's fluent and has worked for the State Department in Beijing.

mjh said:

My nephew learned Mandarin in high school - 3 years in the classroom and one year in China living with a local family. He's fluent and has worked for the State Department in Beijing.

Written as well? Is the child from a heritage family?

My daughter's boyfriend is also fluent in spoken and written Mandarin.

He took his first class in HS, continued his studies in college, spent 3 months immersion in China, received a McArthur Fellowship(sp?) and went back for another 10 months immersion/schooling. He was in all heritage classes at NYU even though he is not from a heritage family.

He graduated in December and is now employed in the NYC financial sector but has his sights set on DC.

FWIW: He originally planned to be a musician. He was accepted to NYU on a music scholarship. Perhaps the ability to hear and read characters is much like music. For him, it "clicked." I understand that it is not always the case however.

touba said:

mjh said:

My nephew learned Mandarin in high school - 3 years in the classroom and one year in China living with a local family. He's fluent and has worked for the State Department in Beijing.

Written as well? Is the child from a heritage family?

Written as well & he's not from a heritage family. He's just particularly adept with language. Between the Peace Corps and Foreign Service assignments, he also speaks Spanish & Russian.

kmk

That's impressive, especially achieving fluency in written Chinese. I think you are right about the musical connection, being able to decipher tone and pitch, etc. These are all very intrinsic components of the language. For example the sound "shi", which I've been told can have a hundred meanings depending on tone, context, etc. Imagine in the English langue the word "the" having a hundred meanings depending on various factors. These types of subtleties about Mandarin make the language extremely difficult for those who don't have access to an immersion setting. And even then, one has to be HIGHLY MOTIVATED and very intelligent to learn so quickly.

Still waiting on mjh's response. Very curious to have some more background there. The studies for achieving fluency after the critical puberty cutoff age are out there if anyone is interested.

mjh

You beat me to it. Sounds like you have a very talented nephew. I am just hoping that your posting doesn't give readers the impression that achieving fluency is so straight-forward. That's all I'm saying. Because tutoring and courses for this type of skill can be prohibitive these days and the results for many are not what they anticipated.

touba said:

mjh

You beat me to it. Sounds like you have a very talented nephew. I am just hoping that your posting doesn't give readers the impression that achieving fluency is so straight-forward. That's all I'm saying. Because tutoring and courses for this type of skill can be prohibitive these days and the results for many are not what they anticipated.

I'm not sure why you would assume the OP's son isn't talented. We don't know a thing about him, but his profound interest in learning the language is something to be commended and (I think) encouraged. Studying the language is a good thing and fluency doesn't have to be the only goal.

mjh

I never said such a thing. Not sure why you are twisting the conversation like that. My only caveat was that I have personal experience in this area plus there are also several forums and blogs that discuss learning Mandarin for English-speakers who don't come from heritage families and who begin the study as adults (I consider high school students young adults). My sentiment is precisely what many of these other forums would describe if you choose to read them. Learning languages is a skill for a small subset of people after a certain age, and if the language happens to be something as complex as Chinese or Arabic, the ability to achieve academic fluency becomes even more remote. This has nothing to do with the "talent" or IQ of the language learner. Linguists are looking at this issue from all angles to see why some brains learn foreign languages faster than others. kmk touched on one connection they have already made between musicians and learning tonal language.

Mandarin is perhaps the most difficult language for English-speakers to master. And "mastery" can be defined many ways. Even Mark Zuckerberg's famous speech in Mandarin where the media touted his ability to speak the language in truth is barely understandable by native speakers I've been told. My point is I guess that before investing a huge amount of money in this type of initiative that parents should test the child first to see if they have the aptitude and passion to take on such a challenge. The lessons and classes and other immersion programs are not cheap by any means.

ETA: a lot of these immersion schools will promise you the world, but the reality sometimes is far less as many parents have found out

It's too bad that the initiative a dozen years or so ago to introduce Mandarin at the elementary level (initially via a program in the afterschool program) fizzled. My daughter participated and learned quite a bit for a 5-6 year old, but it wasn't retained since there was no ongoing reinforcement. My other daughter attended an immersion summer program at age 15 and did quite well with it. But, again, there was no reinforcement easily available here. I know that other school districts offer Mandarin (and know equally well of the budget pressures here), but I sure would like to see it added to our offerings if there was some way to do that. But, if so, it would really need to start at the elementary level to be most effective.

Actually, ALL language instruction is most effective if started young as has been noted, so I'm sorry to see elementary world language being cut. I don't blame our BOE, though. I blame the whole school/tax funding statement in our schools, both at the state level as well as nationwide.

(sorry for thread drift)

sac

Are you saying they cutting Spanish from the Elementary schools? I think that was in third grade, correct?

PS - I agree with you 100% regarding starting earlier. Some experts are saying that even 6-7 is too old for a language as complex as Mandarin. To achieve true fluency and retain it the immersion has to begin at the pre-school level and it has to be sustained till at least 5th grade. This is what I have learned in studying this issue. And by immersion I mean the complete day has to be in the target language, not just a few hours.

touba said:

Hi
Not to put a damper on this discussion, but I have some experience in this department. Let me just say that Mandarin is an extremely difficult language to learn for English speakers (reverse is true for Mandarin speakers). The written language is frightening, one has to learn at least 4,000 characters just to read a basic newspaper. Each character also changes meaning when combined with others, plus you have to memorize the sound for each character. The spoken language for Chinese is actually very simple, compared to English. There are no verb tenses, plural/singular, gender, particles, etc. But there is this whole other system of qualifying words to connote mood or emphasis, counting etc. It is very different from anything we know in English. The tonal aspect of the language is also quite a challenge for Indo-European language speakers.
With that said, my opinion is that unless one starts this language at a very early age and is totally immersed then the likelihood of achieving fluency is extremely difficult. I know people who are over the critical age for learning languages easily (I think it's 12 or 13, after this the brain shifts in terms of learning new languages) and they have lived and worked in China for several years and their ability to speak the language even at a basic level is frighteningly lacking. (let's not even discuss being able to read Chinese).
My point is please think long and hard about spending your money on something like this. It is not like learning Spanish or French for us English-speakers. These short programs are a complete waste of money, I would rule those out completely. Buy Rosetta Stone for your child and let him or her see if they like the language and can tolerate the difficulty of it before you invest any more time and money.

One can read a Chinese newspaper with a 2000 character vocabulary. As for the spoken language being easy compared to English, in some ways perhaps, in some ways not. Chinese characters all have definitive sounds, whereas English phonemes can appear the same, but have multiple pronunciations (wind, live, lead, etc.).

Zuckerberg's Chinese was understandable to me, but he tended to repeat many phrases and didn't have a good handle on the tones. Tones are tough, but context helps you through. I'm sure everyone listening to him at Qinghua could understand him easily.

As for OP's question, look into summer university programs at Beijing unversities. Much less than $6k. RMB12000 is more likely.

@spry, this doesn't answer your question about summer programs, but it might be possible for your son to do an online class in Mandarin during the school year, if he is so inclined. You could contact the World Languages supervisor to speak to her about it.

With regards to learning a new language as a teen, I agree that it is hard as one is tuned to certain sounds in an English dominated environment and may miss subtle sound differences in other languages. However, if one is motivated, it is not impossible to learn a new language as a teen or even as an adult.

touba said:

sac

Are you saying they cutting Spanish from the Elementary schools? I think that was in third grade, correct?

I think that's what I heard about the current budget proposal for next year. I'll look for verification and post if I find something.

This article indicates that elementary world language instruction (i.e. Spanish) would be cut. I don't know what may have transpired subsequently.

http://villagegreennj.com/schools-kids/south-orange-maplewood-school-district-considering-budget-2-cap/

sjdd: I would love some suggestions for a summer program in China for my 14 year old son. He's been studying Mandarin on Sat @ Livingston and this year, he is starting to lose interest. I think a cultural/language immersion experience would re-perk his interest (at least I hope).

sac said:

This article indicates that elementary world language instruction (i.e. Spanish) would be cut. I don't know what may have transpired subsequently.

http://villagegreennj.com/schools-kids/south-orange-maplewood-school-district-considering-budget-2-cap/

Thanks for passing that along. Crappy indeed. But I have to agree with Memoli, the once a week approach is really not effective. Learning a new language requires a complete immersion and constant repetition and practice. Short of living in the target language country where one sinks or swims, it is very difficult to pick up a new language with the academic approach we have in the US. The fly-by-nights "you can learn language XYZ in 90 days" approaches are a complete waste of money in my opinion. It saddens me that the school district doesn't allocate more money to language learning but such is life, I understand the constraints they are operating under.

dave said:

touba said:

Hi
Not to put a damper on this discussion, but I have some experience in this department. Let me just say that Mandarin is an extremely difficult language to learn for English speakers (reverse is true for Mandarin speakers). The written language is frightening, one has to learn at least 4,000 characters just to read a basic newspaper. Each character also changes meaning when combined with others, plus you have to memorize the sound for each character. The spoken language for Chinese is actually very simple, compared to English. There are no verb tenses, plural/singular, gender, particles, etc. But there is this whole other system of qualifying words to connote mood or emphasis, counting etc. It is very different from anything we know in English. The tonal aspect of the language is also quite a challenge for Indo-European language speakers.
With that said, my opinion is that unless one starts this language at a very early age and is totally immersed then the likelihood of achieving fluency is extremely difficult. I know people who are over the critical age for learning languages easily (I think it's 12 or 13, after this the brain shifts in terms of learning new languages) and they have lived and worked in China for several years and their ability to speak the language even at a basic level is frighteningly lacking. (let's not even discuss being able to read Chinese).
My point is please think long and hard about spending your money on something like this. It is not like learning Spanish or French for us English-speakers. These short programs are a complete waste of money, I would rule those out completely. Buy Rosetta Stone for your child and let him or her see if they like the language and can tolerate the difficulty of it before you invest any more time and money.

One can read a Chinese newspaper with a 2000 character vocabulary. As for the spoken language being easy compared to English, in some ways perhaps, in some ways not. Chinese characters all have definitive sounds, whereas English phonemes can appear the same, but have multiple pronunciations (wind, live, lead, etc.).

Zuckerberg's Chinese was understandable to me, but he tended to repeat many phrases and didn't have a good handle on the tones. Tones are tough, but context helps you through. I'm sure everyone listening to him at Qinghua could understand him easily.

As for OP's question, look into summer university programs at Beijing unversities. Much less than $6k. RMB12000 is more likely.

My understanding is that the tonal aspect is what makes or breaks learning Mandarin. Many English-speakers don't understand this nuance in the language, where a slightly different tone can have a completely different meaning. But I think you are right if you are a fluent speaker, I'd imagine native speakers can infer the meaning by context.

Is it really just 2000 characters for baseline academic fluency? I thought that the characters all changed meaning (and sometimes sound) depending on the combination. Regardless, it just seems daunting to me considering in English we only have to learn 26 'characters' and the sounds are always consistent.

A friend who is native Chinese told me that most Chinese kids learn the basic characters by 4th grade. That's quite a feat. Amazing what the young brain can absorb. She also conceded though that it is quite difficult even for the natives and requires endless practice and rote memorization.

You can read quite a lot of a newspaper with a 1000 character vocabulary.
Keep in mind there are only 214 radicals that are used in combination to create characters, so memorization is assisted a bit and you can start guessing at meaning if not pronunciation.
Person radical + mountain radical combined in one character means immortal. Etc.