EPA unleashes environmental disaster, tries to stone wall and cover up and President is silent

And still the statist left tries to peddle the line that government is a force for good and is a competent decision maker.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/09/navajo-nation-epa-spill/31384515/

...and the free space makes bingo!

I suppose if the "statist left" (whatever that means) pushed an idea that the government infallible you would have a point. Since they don't, I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

A reasonable observer would say, wow, the EPA really f-ed up here, they need to be held accountable. And since it's a public agency, good news! There are mechanisms to hold them accountable! And beyond this, I'd expect anyone adversely affected has standing to sue -- though I suppose being able to sue because of environmental damages is yet another "statist" thing.

I'm not sure what your preferred alternative is. After all, this contamination exists because of private industry, which makes your complaints inconsistent. I can hardly imagine you getting upset at the mining companies for creating the pollution in the first place, but we're supposed to believe you're upset that the EPA made a mistake trying to clean it up?

Taxpayers should not be the ones to pay for this mess. It should come directly from the paychecks of EPA employees.

The mine in question last operated in the 1920's. The dam had held until the EPA started poking around.

I'd bet 100-1 that it was a private contractor that started "poking around." The chances that EPA employees were literally in a mine doing cleanup is next to zero.

This schtick is stale

ml1 said:
I'd bet 100-1 that it was a private contractor that started "poking around." The chances that EPA employees were literally in a mine doing cleanup is next to zero.

It has been described as contractors supervised by EPA employees. So it was an EPA controlled operation and some EPA employees were (or should have been) present. So it is the EPA's responsibility. One of the biggest ecological disasters of our time set off by the EPA.

ml1 said:
I'd bet 100-1 that it was a private contractor that started "poking around." The chances that EPA employees were literally in a mine doing cleanup is next to zero.

^ This ^

bramzzoinks said:

ml1 said:
I'd bet 100-1 that it was a private contractor that started "poking around." The chances that EPA employees were literally in a mine doing cleanup is next to zero.

It has been described as contractors supervised by EPA employees. So it was an EPA controlled operation and some EPA employees were (or should have been) present. So it is the EPA's responsibility. One of the biggest ecological disasters of our time set off by the EPA.

it's the market at work, with the lowest bidders getting the job.

But you've set up a straw man. No one is saying it's not the EPA's responsibility. I just thought maybe we'd get it on the record that the boots on the ground at these sites aren't government "statists." They're employees of private businesses.

And although this is a hot ass mess, at this point, I don't expect the President to fully focus on this right now because he has a full heaping plate of Iran to deal with. If he stops talking about Iran and begins to issue statements on the EPA, and hold press conferences on a dam, then we'll hear sighs and mumbles that he's not taking Iran seriously. It's a lose-lose.

Would like to hear from the people in that area -- homeowners, city council, scientists -- and what their concerns are and have been regarding this mine. They may offer more advice and knowledge than the president can offer right now.

And then there is this detail from the article posted-

"According to the EPA's website for the Upper Animas Mining District, environmental officials considered adding the Upper Cement Creek area to the National Priorities List in 2008, but decided against it due to a lack of community support."

Lack of community support means local officials would not or could not accept low interest loans from EPA to address situations like this. I would say the back story here is that this is another example of how our aging infrastructure, and unwillingness to address it results in disaster.

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9126853/epa-mine-spill-animas

bramzzoinks said:

ml1 said:
I'd bet 100-1 that it was a private contractor that started "poking around." The chances that EPA employees were literally in a mine doing cleanup is next to zero.

It has been described as contractors supervised by EPA employees. So it was an EPA controlled operation and some EPA employees were (or should have been) present. So it is the EPA's responsibility. One of the biggest ecological disasters of our time set off by the EPA.

Please don't pretend to care about the environment.

I mean, if it wasn't for private industry's lack of ethics, we wouldn't need an EPA.

bramzzoinks said:
And still the statist left tries to peddle the line that government is a force for good and is a competent decision maker.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/09/navajo-nation-epa-spill/31384515/

The biggest tragedy is the fodder this mess provides for anti-government morons. Of course, anybody with a brain might ask where the pollution came from in the first place. Maybe I can find a website that will tell me that superfund sites are actually an EPA conspiracy.

The EPA made a mistake while cleaning up an old contaminated mine. It wasn't as if the EPA were out there engaged in unconventional or suspect activities. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff happens when you do remediation.

And, to expect that the President would get involved is silly.

Maybe they'll leave me alone for 5 minutes. Don't ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever rent / buy / lease / do business at a property that was once a gas station. Even if the tanks were removed and soil was trucked out and fresh soil was brought in a few years before you were born. Unless you want to be on a first name basis with the EPA and tank / soil remediation companies. Regardless of what the paperwork you sign says.

bramzzoinks said:
Taxpayers should not be the ones to pay for this mess. It should come directly from the paychecks of EPA employees.
The mine in question last operated in the 1920's. The dam had held until the EPA started poking around.

I agree it should't be taxpayers that are on the hook for costs of cleanup, though your proposal that EPA employees should be personally liable is pretty vicious.

I don't know the details here, but generally companies are fined for the costs of cleanup, which makes sense -- those who caused the pollution ought to be liable for cleaning it up. I'm sure you support this, given your aversion to making taxpayers responsible -- though if you think it should come directly out of the responsible company employee's paychecks, I again have to disagree with you there.

I would imagine that any costs, fines, suits etc against the EPA for this disaster should be less than fines the EPA has collected from polluters, so I doubt there'll be a net loss for taxpayers here. (Closer to home, this is why it's important to collect the full cost of pollution from those responsible, and why Christie's proposed settlement with Exxon is so terrible. Given your logic, I'm sure you agree with me on this).

The Republican Senators/Representatives in the West have long resisted any changes to laws/regulations that would give the ranching and mining industries any semblance of responsibility for the environmental damage they have done. The US government was trying to clean up someone else's environmental disaster. Yes, they screwed it up but it should have been taken care of years ago.

So for the anti-environmentalists, the solution is what? Just allow mining companies to dump this stuff directly into the rivers in the first place?

bramzzoinks said:
Taxpayers should not be the ones to pay for this mess. It should come directly from the paychecks of EPA employees.

You have a point about civil servants being made personally responsible for their misdeeds. Not going to happen.

Many years ago I was rear ended by a car which was in turn rear ended by a township car when we were stopped at a light. The car behind me, the middle car, was accordianned. The township insurer didn't even have to pay. NJ law required my insurance to pay when a NJ governmental vehicle is involved even when the governmental vehicle is at fault. The town did have to pay my deductible. The government driver got off scot free. If I or you rear ended someone we would have to pay for the other vehicles repair and we would have at-fault insurance points put on our record.

In 2014, NYC had to pay $165 million for police misconduct. The taxpayers paid for the misconduct by the police. The PBA contract could be changed to make police responsible. If it costs 165 million in 2014, about 5,000 a year, take that 5,000 out every cops pay next year. I bet there will be less misconduct. Won't happen.

When the IRAQ war started, our troops were insufficiently armored. HUMVEES were like tin cans, troops had insufficient body armor with troops being killled as a result. There were newspaper stories of civilians buying and shipping personal and HUMVEE armor to the troops. Rumsfeld famous response was "you go to war with the army you have---not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time" to the question asked by Army Spc. Thomas Wilson: "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles? And why don't we have those resources readily available to us?"

Was Rumsfeld and the leadership held responsible? Not really. Rumsfeld was "retired" early but he's living extremely well on his pensions, investments and speaker fees.

So its not just the EPA, its all over. Very rarely is anyone ever really held responsible.

bramzzoinks said:
Taxpayers should not be the ones to pay for this mess. It should come directly from the paychecks of EPA employees.

Right after we dock the pensions of Rumsfeld, Cheney, et. al, to pay for the Iraq War.

I think zz's logic applied to the Iraq war/military in general would be that individual soldiers should have costs deducted from their paychecks. As punishment for working for the state, I guess.

BG9, did you have any out-of-pocket costs in your accident? Did your rates go up or did you get points?

I don't think it's a reasonable solution for police to use their personal insurance coverage while they're on duty. Driving is a required part of their job, and all the associated costs should be picked up by the employer. In this case, that's the taxpayers. If they're racing to your house because you think there's a break-in do you really want their first thoughts to be about their deductible?

tom said:
So for the anti-environmentalists, the solution is what? Just allow mining companies to dump this stuff directly into the rivers in the first place?

Yes.

The solution to pollution is dilution.

Woot said:

tom said:
So for the anti-environmentalists, the solution is what? Just allow mining companies to dump this stuff directly into the rivers in the first place?

Yes.

tom said:
BG9, did you have any out-of-pocket costs in your accident? Did your rates go up or did you get points?
I don't think it's a reasonable solution for police to use their personal insurance coverage while they're on duty. Driving is a required part of their job, and all the associated costs should be picked up by the employer. In this case, that's the taxpayers. If they're racing to your house because you think there's a break-in do you really want their first thoughts to be about their deductible?

Just my time, paperwork and all the crap it entails. There may have been some out of pocket rental cost.

I don't expect police to be personally liable for racing to aid. But I do expect some personal responsibility when there is negligence, such as rear ending someone stopped at a light on a dry road. When we do it, we are held responsible.

According to the President of the Navajo Nation, people representing the EPA are going door to door pressuring people, mostly poor, many who do not speak English as their first language, to sign paperwork for an immediate payment which signs away rights to sue or get future payment.

Imagine the fury if this was happening in a Republican administration? Or if a private company tried to do this?

Your sudden concern for the environment and Native Americans is touching.

bramzzoinks said:
Imagine the fury if this was happening in a Republican administration? Or if a private company tried to do this?